Was Beethoven Black?

lifemask_small.png

Some of you may be groaning already, but I had never heard this before. Evidently, a number of people over the years have speculated on Beethoven's ethnicity. I think it's pretty clear he wasn't 100% of African descent, but the most realistic speculation is that he was a "mulatto", to use the parlance of the time.

This page gives many interesting quotes and tidbits to back up this claim (none of which I have the time to independently verify in any way), including this one which is interesting:

In speaking of the immortal Haydn who was Beethoven's teacher, Andre de Hevesy, says: "Everybody knows the incident at Kismarton or Eisenstadt, the residence of Prince Esterhazy. In the middle of the first allegro of Haydn's symphony, His Highness asked the name of the author. He was brought forward. "'What!'exclaimed the prince, 'the music is by this blackamoor? 'Well, my fine blackamoor, henceforward, thou art in my service.'"

Here, however, is a pretty stern refutation of this speculation, claiming that Beethoven's lineage is well-documented (but giving no references as such).

Beethoven's "Life Mask"

Beethoven's Death Mask

Beethoven's Death Mask (alternate view)

Given the aforementioned evidence, I think that I can say with 100% confidence and accuracy: Beats me.

On a more perplexing note, some are ruffling feathers by asking an even more provocative question: Was Michael Jackson black?

  • Humphrey

    Please send any other information on this . We are trying to bring this to the school board . Thankyou.Please send also where you got your info. I have been looking for an artical in newyork times , but could not find .

  • Jacquese stitts

    Yes, my name is Jacquese Stitts and I go to Foss high school. We were doing this project and we got this paper were we read about the negro beethoven, and after we were done our teacher told us that if we were interested in the truth to do some reasarch so we can get our own version of the truth.so I was lookin through the sites and I came across this one and I see that you left out some important information . then i see this.Beethovens mom was a moor (a muslim african)also his negroid traits(dark skin,flat, thicknose)well tahnk you for listening to my suggestions.

    Jacquese Stitts

  • Schubert Decendant

    I am a Schubert decendant, and I feel that it does nto matter about Beethoven’s race. His symphonies were some of the best written. I think all of you should grow up and give this mastermind composer some peace. His race is of no importance, only his music. As my generation has grown, more and more blacks, asians, and spanish have become part of our Schubert family, and he too was an extroadinary composer. Let by-guards be by-guards and lets listen to Beethoven’s music together in peace.

  • steve sharon

    to schubert decendant: spanish people are from europe , they are part of the white race:do not confuse them with the indigenous people they conquered four centuries ago.

  • http://www.geocities.com/dabjazz Dave Blocker

    In my research, (long time), I have reconstructed Beethoven’s protrait, and documentaton of his life, “The Mor Musician”
    check it out.Also, a lot of his fellow musicians were black and at times, could not get a gig because of their color.
    http://www.geocities.com/dabjazz/page7.html

  • Johan

    As one can see from the life and death masks, the features look European. As the side view shows, the nose is NOT flat at all. It is quite sharp.

    A question: The death mask shown here looks compeltely different from the one I remember seeing on display at Beethoven’s house in Bonn. Is it genuine?

    The speculations about black ancestory probably got started when it became fashionable to make claims about black achievements throughout history, and also probably got started in America.

    So the discussion is a political one, not a scientific one. You apparently don’t see any forensic pathologists or biochemists participating in it.

    The issue could easily be resolved by a scientific investigation – but the proponents of the idea that Beethoven was black aren’t calling for any. Why not?

  • Johan

    Much better views of Beethoven’s life and death masks can be seen here (there are also examples of “re-done” masks):

    Life Mask from the real (The one I saw in Bonn – note the straight hair).

    Portrait painted from life:

    Death Mask from the real Beethoven

    The second “death mask” shown at the begining of the article titled “Was Beethoven Black” is thus apparently not the real death mask, and appears to be a (altered) version of his life mask re-done in order to support the argument that he was black.

  • dab

    In Time-Life collection, it shows where they rubbed his face off, then as years go bye, his features changed. Please read how he is discribed by his friends, and how people laughed at him because of his dark complection. come on be for real and check it out. We have a calendar commemorating black history month, every picture that was created looks non black. Not black at all.

  • Johan

    (This is a second attempt, where I am removing html tags):

    Much better views of Beethoven’s life and death masks can be seen here (there are also examples of “re-done” masks):

    http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Portraits/GalleryPortraits.html

    Life Mask from the real (The one I saw in Bonn – note that there seems to be strands of straight hair on top – not compatible with the idea that he was black).

    http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Portraits/ImagesGalerie/Masque_Klein_Original.jpg

    (note: the link to the frontal view of the “death mask” on the top of this page is not his death mask at all – it is a redoing of the life mask; altered to make him look black – a bit dishonest, isn’t it?).

    Portrait painted from life:

    http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Portraits/ImagesGalerie/AugustLudwigStein.jpg

    (Isn’t this supposed to be the most authentic portrait of him?)

    Death Mask from the real Beethoven

    http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Portraits/ImagesGalerie/MasqueDanhauser_1827.jpg
    The second “death mask” shown at the begining of the article titled “Was Beethoven Black” is thus apparently not the real death mask, and appears to be a (altered) version of his life mask re-done in order to support the argument that he was black.

    The features are unmistakenly European (no African prognathism – the side views show the prominent nasal bone and sill, and hatchet face are distinctly European – as any Physical Anthropologist can show you. How do proponents of the idea that he was black respond to that?).

  • ONE

    Ignorance knows no bounds!

    Firstly, black people are African people. Not all Africans look the same, have the same skin tones, have extremely tight curls, or flat broad noses. If you were to look at me you would say “he’s black.” You would not say “he is Spanish”, yet I am. You would not say “he is portuguese”, yet I am. You would not say “he is carib”, yet I am. I am a mix of humanity but because I have tightly curled black hair and brown skin, you will say I’m black. I do not have a flat broad nose, but I do have full lips. My point is you can not look at beethoven and decide whether or not he had African blood. The Moors were not West African. There has been much cross polination between Africa and the middle east. Algerians are Africans but do not look like the Congolese. Mariah Carey is black and any children, or grand children, she has from a white man will also be black although they won’t really “look” it. Southern Italians have dark features and curly dark hair unlike northern Italians because of the Moor invasions; this is also true of Spain. So, if Beethoven’s mother was a Moor, then he is African, which means he is Black. It always seems that those of european decent have a harder time with these issues than those of African decent. At the end of the day we all sprang from the same seed and are merely variants of the one human race. It would be nice if we could get beyond splitting hairs.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/ Chris Wage

    Well put.

  • Johan

    No. You can look at Beethoven’s physical features, and tell his race. In any scientific discussion, physical evidence is the first place to start. Is there anything black about them? Apparently not.

    What the public thinks of your race, makes no difference in any scientific discussion. Only what science says, counts.

    If a physical anthropologist looked at you, or your remains, he would be able to tell with over 90% certainty, what your ancestory was, based on your skeleton alone.

    A test of your DNA would make it a 100% certainty. Such is the hair splitting ability of science.

    If you don’t beleive me, go to your nearest medical school library, and look up Forensic Pathology and Physical Anthropology.

    Two other problems that have yet to be commented on:

    Item1-The first”death mask” shown on the top of his page is proven not to be his death mask. It is, in fact, something else entirely.

    Here is the real death mask:
    http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Portraits/ImagesGalerie/MasqueDanhauser_1827.jpg

    Anyone who had done a little looking on the internet, could have pointed that out. None of you were able to point this out.

    Item2- The same “death mask” is in reality based on the life mask, but altered, apparently both in shape and color, in order to make Beethoven look black. Again, despite the ready availability of images of the real life and death masks on the
    internet, no one here seems to have had a problem with that, either.

    Here are the links again:

    Life mask from the real:
    http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Portraits/ImagesGalerie/Masque_Klein_Original.jpg

    Death mask from the real:

    http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Portraits/ImagesGalerie/MasqueDanhauser_1827.jpg

    However, I agree with one thing that you said: Not all Africans look the same. What I said about African prognathism should really have been “Sub-Saharan African” prognathism. The populations of North Africa are not black.

    If those posting on this board are high school kids, don’t be afraid to challenge an idea. But also, if someone (for example, your teacher) agrees with everything you say, he/she isn’t really thinking, nor is he/she really preparing you for the real world.

  • ONE

    Firstly, let me say that I have not entered into a scientific discussion, nor do I intend to. I do not need to examine the dead to understand the living.

    Science is not the Alpha and the Omega.

    “Black” is not a race, nor is it scientific language.

    Death masks. Who cares?

    Reading up on the Moors and their 700 year invasion of europe may do some good in understanding their influence in the genetic make up of europe, among other things.

    Disolve these imaginary boundaries and realize that people have been fighting and “race mixing” for a very very long time. Hitler was not right, there is no pure race. Blond and Blue are recessive genetic mutations of Black and Brown. Biology 101.

    Anthropology 101. It is still held that the first human rose up and became bipedal in Africa.

    History would do better in informing you of who you are and who beethoven was.

  • Johan

    If science is not the alpha and omega, why do you use its benefits (in your statements, for example)?

    Also, if you are not aware of the importance of science, what can you possibly know about history?

    Beethoven is dead, so to know him, we need to examine the dead.

    Someone who doesn’t like what death masks show them, can ignore them, and pretend that they are irelevant.

    The Moors were Arab and North African (not Subsaharan Negro).

    Talking about early humans in Africa and Hitler, have nothing to do with Beethoven. Why bring them up (unless of course, you can’t respond to the points I made)?

    Also, I am not sure I understand your statement about recessive genetic mutations. What is this supposed to prove?

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/ Chris Wage

    Johan:

    If a physical anthropologist looked at you, or your remains, he would be able to tell with over 90% certainty, what your ancestory was, based on your skeleton alone.

    A test of your DNA would make it a 100% certainty. Such is the hair splitting ability of science.

    This is 100% wrong. See this link for more, and perhaps Wikipedia’s entry on race. Your ignorance of the very science you’re attempting to use as a cudgel is appalling.

    If you don’t beleive me, go to your nearest medical school library, and look up Forensic Pathology and Physical Anthropology.

    What, pray tell, does forensic pathology have to do with this?

  • Johan

    Chris:

    I may have exagerated a bit -The nasal sill, for example, is not visible unless the skull is exposed – it would be better to observe the notches on the nasal bridge. But one exagerates to make a point, just as you now did with your “100%”.

    (why didn’t you catch my exageration?)

    What do Forensic Pathology and Forensic Anthropology have to do with each other and identifying an individual’s race?

    A few links may supply some information:

    Forensic Pathology:

    “Clinical examination also tends to confirm hunches about age, race, sex, height, weight, and general health condition in cases of unidentified remains.”

    http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/425/425lect12.htm

    “In the examination of skeleton or severely decomposed remains, the
    forensic pathologist needs a working knowledge of multiple methods of
    identification including forensic anthropology in order to establish
    identity. If sufficient skeletal parts remain, the pathologist may be
    able to determine the age, race and sex of the individual and sometimes
    estimate the length of time since death. Occasionally, specific
    markings on the bones may enable the pathologist to come to a
    conclusion as to the cause of death.”

    http://www.thename.org/medical_detective.htm#how%20does%20path%20use%20history%20etc

    “How to ID Jane/John Doe *Fingerprint (whorl, accidental, arch, loop) *Forensic odontology -Teeth are highly resistant to degradation -Bite mark ID -Compare ante- and post-mortem x-rays *Forensic anthropology -ID skeletal remains ~Age, race, sex and stature ~Signs of trauma ~ID victims in mass disaster”

    http://darla.neoucom.edu/Students/ProfDev/ PeerMentorResources/M2/Term2/GI/PathologyForensic.pdf

    “Forensic Analysis of the Skull: Craniofacial Analysis, Reconstruction, and Identification by Mehmet Yasar Iscan, Richard P. Helmer (Editor) (January 15, 1993)
    This engrossing book offers detailed coverage of forensic implications and methods of craniofacial identification. Race, sex and age morphology are explored along with video superimposition and computer imaging techniques. Several case studies are also included.”

    http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/pathology-books.html

    Here are some sites you may not have checked out.

    http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html

    Here, Forensic Pathology and Physical Anthropology departments share the same quarters (rather suspicious behavior for fields that supposedly have nothing to do with each other)

    http://forensic.shef.ac.uk/forensic.html

    Forensic/Physical Anthropologist argues that race is a reality:
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/gill.html

    PBS had a special on this:
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2705first.html

    Here is an article which is interesting:
    DETERMINE RACE PROPORTIONS FROM CRIME SCENE DNA
    http://www.bioforensics.com/conference04/

    Racial_Identification

    http://www.canadapagan.com/CanInfo/articles/forensic.htm

    Also of interest:

    Forensic Dentistry
    by Paul G. Stimson (Editor), Curtis A. Mertz (Editor)
    Hardcover
    Published by CRC Pr
    Publication date: May 1997

    “Book Description: Identification of unknown individuals and the determination of their age, race, and sex is one of the most important functions of forensic dentistry…”

    Also..

    http://www.corpus-delicti.com/pathology.html

    These links were looked up on the spur of a moment. The Books on these subjects are a better source.

    Whoever wrote the entry in Wikepedia may not have looked at these. People can continue to write such things.

  • ONE

    Good Day Everyone:

    Here are two very good articles on the subject of race. Thanks to Johan for providing the first one which supports his view. The second article from the same site, and referred to in the first, supports my earlier comments on the importance of understanding the correlation between human variation and our movements across the planet.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/gill.html

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/brace.html

  • Kelli

    THANK U ONE, FOR SETTING JOHAN STRAIGHT!

    TO JOHAN:

    You are definitely a product of your european ancestory. Brainwashed! So quick to deny African and African-american history and or achievements. Beethoven was a Black man of mixed blood. You would be surprised how many great people of history (too many to name) was of mixed African blood that you would never dream of. When I find out who is of mixed nationality I too am a little surprised thanks to this european dominated society of ours. This is how we think. African people come in all hues, shapes, sizes, hair textures, facial features and background. Ethiopians just to name one example have keen features. We are a diverse people. Black inventions whites have always slapped their names on them given themselves the credit for it and have unjustifiable reaped rewards for them. Jesus made only in your image. It says it in the very bible that europeans have misinterpreted, Revelation chapter 1 I do believe, that his hair was like wool and his feet were like burnt bronze or brass. If a slave owner will not treat you right what makes you think he’s going to teach you right. During slavery, and yet beyond, Africans were denied the right to read for, if we were able to read, then we would be able to understand what the Constitution meant and the Declaration of Independence was about. We would know that we were slaves. This was considered dangerous to the white man and his people. They knew that if we could read and write english, we would resist slavery instead of submitting/docile and made to feel inferior. This is why if a slave owners children or even an abolitionist was caught teaching us to read he/she was tortured or murdered to be made an example of. This country was never “so called founded” or should I say stolen (a stolen land, and stolen people built this country) for African/Blacks or any other people of color for that matter. I just cannot believe that you are so quick to deny that Beethoven was African or Black mixed blood or whatever! It does not matter. First man/woman of civilation was African/Black. Before there was any such thing as Europe there was Africa. While you were still crawling on all fours in the hills of Europe, We were building Great Civilizations (i.e., Egypt, Ethiopia, Asia, Mexica etc…)WE ARE THE MOTHER AND FATHER OF CIVILIZATION! Europeons have always denied the real history, the truth, the facts and will always continue to teach mistruths. That is your nature! You have always created your own history and caused Caos around the world just like what is going on today with this wicked system your people have created. People are a product of their environment, their climate, their surroundings. It is a blessing to be African/Black. They will not teach you the truth because they know how great we are and their is no other people on earth like African/Black people. They always told us that Africa was a poor place with no culture no history just savages, yet Africa is the richest place on the planet and THEY KNOW IT!!! This is why they have raped, stole and corrupted it for many many century and continue to do so. For it is rich in minerals, oil, diamonds, gold, platinum, rubies and many other rich resources. They will have to answer to The Creator for all of the trickeries and crimes committed on us by them. Someday! So deny all you would like that Beethoven was of mixed blood, but you can not deny the truth. Whites do not or have never intended for African/Blacks to succeed in this country or any other country for that matter. And your ignorant response is?

  • Kismet

    Well Kelli, that was a nice little rant.
    Out of curiousity, if Africa is so great, why is it such an utter toilet ?

    Just because some halfwit found a chicken leg and the odd tooth, and called it ‘Lucy’ does not make Africa the cradle of civilization.

    As for Ludwig, he looks to me like a North African, or possibly a Sephardic Jew.
    Who cares ?

  • http://WhatRace? ann menheere

    They have recently finalized DNA testing on Beethoven’s lock of hair. It was determined that he is of European decent only, and that there is no Negroid or any other race recognized within his DNA.

    This is not intended as an insult to the African heritage. It is just the fact.

    I think that an individual should be respected and appreciated for their accomplishments, without having to pull up the race card. It’s a shame when people feel the need to prove themselves through another person’s life.

    Sincerely

  • Dave Blocker
  • Dave Blocker

    You know, in Time-Life Encyclo. the face of Beethoven was rubbed out. The portraits they replace with were all Europian. You know, it’s been documented throughout Europe, that he was known as, “the Mor”, “Black Spaniard”, “ruddied complection”, “Dark”, “ugly” and so many other names that used to described one who was black. Back in his day. People in his time had no knowlege of what we would be able to do in the twentieth century. For instance, they turned his head to face left while leaving his hair facing right. The didn’t know someone would come along and check it out and reverse it showing the real thing right before our eyes. If you take a strand of hair from an African, you will find all of the types of hair on this Earth in it. Yep, you have two different death masks, actually ther are more but the truth is here y’all. The man suffered enough in his time because, race is so deep, especially when it’s in the time of slavery, and there is money to be made even today, in modern slavery. The slaver could be any color, black too if he is in power. Who was in power in Beethovens day, how many brown babies were sold ?

  • Menheere

    Where on Earth do you get your information? Have you ever taken a true interest in Beethoven, the man? Do you know anything about his life and his family?

  • Johan

    Kelli:

    On the one had, you congratulate “One” for “setting Johan straight”- with articles that deny the biological basis of race – and on the other, say that I am “definitely” a product of European ancestory.

    How do you manage to make such a contradiction?

    The rest of what you said really doesn’t deserve comment.

  • http://ReferenceofDark Menheere

    May I futher point out that over a hundred years ago and further, when a person was referred to as being “dark”, “black Spaniard” or a “Mor” they actually had an olive complexion.

    King Charles II was referred to as the aforementioned, and he was of French/Scots/Italian decent.

    Would you find importance in me, as you do in Beethoven? I’m of mixed decent, but I’m not a celebrated individual.

    Are you praising Beethoven for his amazing talent, or is race more important to you?

    Sincerely

  • menheere

    P.S. Please make sure you understand words before posting. “Ruddy” complexion means having a healthy red colour.

    Yes Beethoven had a “ruddy” complexion, like most Europeans.

    Sincerely

  • Johan
  • Lynnise

    First of all, not all blacks have charcteristic traits of wrinkles or bends”typical of their hair”. If you take a look at the physical characteristics of many African Americans, we do not all have the same texture, of course you would not know that because you aren’t black. Someone who’s father is white and mother is fair skinned usually comes out with hair that is straight, very similar to europeans’ grade of hair. A light skinned black is usually comprised of white descent and so their texture is a lot less curly, so when they marry someone that is white I wonder which one overlaps? As far as Arabs and etc… we had to adapt to different climates, therfore, our skin, and overtime facial features shifted. I guarantee you if you trace your lineage you will most certainly find out who you are, but of course, you probably won’t do that because you don’t even want to consider he possibilty of someone else who has been labeled white, but in actuality his mother is a moor, let alone yourself. I bet you don’t even know who invented the street light, tires, stove, refrigerator, iron , ironing board etc… they were all black. We have made this country the profitable market it is, yet you all continue to reap from our inventions, yet we do not. Before there was Europe, Africa had civilzations, forms of political institutions, kings, queens , chiefs, schools ,colleges, we had all of that.

  • http://Lynnise menheere

    Why are you so bitter? Do you know anything about Beethoven?

    As I asked before, if he weren’t famous, would you care anything about his race?

    Infact, people who are bi-racial are discriminated against by both sides. So, what is your point? Who actually cares what race “overlaps”?

    Besides, I thought the topic was Beethoven, not which race is better and who did what. It’s the individual who makes a change in this world, not groups.

    Sincerely,

  • Sandi

    Please note, that just because Beethoven DNA came back as classified as “white”, does not mean he was not of mixed heritage, it only identified that his DNA results were of “white” ancestry.

    I am multiracial and classified as “white”. My one parent is white; the other mulatto (Black/American Indian). Even so, I do not consider myself white nor do I consider myself mulatto. I consider myself a woman of color and classify myself accordingly.

    I believe that if you are of mixed heritage, then you should be proud of it. To not recognize one ancestry over the other, is like telling yourself that one of your biological parents is really a “step parent”. I am very proud of both of my parents, and will never deny the recognition of either one of them.

    Also, our North African neighbors, here in the USA are classified under the same ethnic race group as myself. Which is “Some other race” subset: e.g., Moroccan. Which then cascades upward to “Arabic”, which then defaults to the “White” race classification.

    And you know, the only difference between me and a Moroccan, their white blood is of the Arabic race, but they are predominately a multiracial culture (Arabic/Spanish/Black/French/German, etc.)

    My white blood German/Italian.

    Also, your Cuban race is predominantely of the “Mulatto”, yet they are classified under the “Spanish” race. However, probably under the “White” Spanish class vs. the “Other” Spanish class.

    One other note, many Ethiopians have Italian bloodlines, culturally speaking, which probably accounts for their keen features and and less kinky hair. However, they have chosen to classify themselves within the Africian/Black race group.

    Also, Egyptians historically evolved “genetically” from the ‘black’ race to the ‘white’ race group, due to DNA mixture.

    Please note, that my intention is not to offend anyone, but if you are 100% of African/Black decendent, then yes, by all means, identify yourself as so. As I am proud to have “Black” decendent. But, I am equally proud to have “White” and “American Indian” decendent blood in me as well.

    One last note, if you really want to call yourself “African/Black”. Then say it. Too many Black groups come here to the USA, and instead of saying they are black, they’ll say “I’m Haitian, or I’m Ethoipian, or I’m Spanish, and so forth. It’s almost like you yourself is in denial, or afraid to say you are Black!

    And the “Black” race need to quit changing their identity. Regardless of who came up with the race classification. One minute (years ago) called: Colored; then Negro, then Black, and now Afro-American/Black.

  • menheere

    I would really like to know where this idea that Beethoven was of black descent came from.

    Do some people want to lay claim to his legacy for themselves? Is it sheer jealousy? Or is just ignorance?

  • Jay

    As a musician, I understand that Ludwig Van Beethoven is to this day a pioneer of all forms of music. This point is in the forefront of my mind. Since the discussion is about his lineage and not his contribution to music, I find it interesting how some can say his lineage doesnt matter. I also find it contradicting that the same who say his lineage doesnt matter, never debate pictures of Jesus with blonde hair and blue eyes. I’ve never heard anyone of European descent say it doesnt matter. It’s always just accepted by those of European descent. My point is that I don’t understand why a black or any other race of people, get questioned when asking why such things as a great composer with possible Moor lineage might possibly actually have some African blood. Some sound as if it is more acceptable if the lineage proved that Beethoven had North Saharan blood verses ANY blood of the darker skinned Africans. Whats going on here seems obvious, and the ones making the obvious statements dont even realize it. I’d just like to know if ANYONE can prove Beethovens mother wasn’t a moor, and then we could have an answer to this lineage of Beethoven question.

  • Johan

    Jay:

    SInce the indigenous populations of Europe are white, and black populations didn’t exist there, there is little likelihood that an individual in Europe was black.

    So the burden of proof lies on those who claim that Beethoven was black.

    But the (rational) discussion is already over, given the physical evidence.

  • belle

    Where does the Black/Moor descent fit in?

    Ludwig von Beethoven’s mother was Maria Magdalena Keverich Leym. She was born in Germany, where her father Heinrich Keverich was employed at the palace of the elector of Treves at Ehrenbreitstein.

    Ludwig von Beethoven was German, with some Flemish background, hence the title “von” was “van” at one time in the family.

    Where did anyone get the idea that he was of black heritage?

  • Johan
  • Belle

    This is for Mr. Dan Blocker regarding the site you had earlier indicated. I must say that Mr. Lance Lewis is a disgrace.

    What proof in this entire world does he have regarding Von Beethoven’s ethnic background. He obviously has never spoken to anyone knowledgeable in this regard. The Beethovens do not come from Spanish heritage. Yes they were of Flemish background. It is disgusting that someone can be so presumputous.

    Does Mr. Lewis know anything about European origin and culture? When the reference of “Black Spaniard” is made it refers to the black hair of the Spanish, not black skin. People who had dark hair were always referred to as “dark” in the European culture. Are you about to tell Europeans that people from Spain, Belgium, etc are of Black origin?

    Von Beethoven was a European with straight brown hair, and a ruddy complexion. Not curly hair as Mr. Lewis had indicated.

    I must add that the pictures which are shown on Mr. Lewis’s site have been altered. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND. Go and check out the originals if you have any questions.

    Regards,

  • Johan

    The images are altered, of course (and – haha- Beethoven still doesn’t look black in them). I think its funny.

    These people are probably members of the American public – the same people who have given us “Alien abductions”, and other such nonsense.

    They are addicted to entertainment – the more fantastic and wonderful something sounds, the more likely they will believe it.

    Their school system is the worst in the world. When compared to students from other countries, they don’t even excel in their own language.( I am interested to know how US high school students perform in international olympiads on subjects like Maths.)

    Consequently, it may be that America’s public has little respect for the science and technology that have given them the standard of living that they enjoy, and are ignorant of their own history.

    Also, I wouldn’t expect them to have any insight into their condition.

    (This is especially true about American blacks, since no one is supposed to criticize them.)

  • Johan

    By the way, here is what the relevant portrait of Beethoven looked like before those little alterations…

    …and here is the altered version, with a most interesting comment:”Beethoven’s portrait has been systematically changing, making him to appear European in features. ”

    (cough).

  • http://www.geocities.com/dabjazz/page7.html dab

    Yeah, RIGHT!!! As was reported, Goethe, a great writer who is said to be of Negro ancestry says, “the scetch from life by Letronne and engraved by Hofel, done in charcoal showed Beethoven dark” Can his biographers be wrong causing a lot of controversy here? They describe him as “Blackish-brown or Blackamoor”

  • Belle

    Dear dear DAB

    Johann Wolfgang Goethe was German with no Negro ancestry. I KNOW FOR A FACT. So do not carry on with this conversation please.

    Have you seen the original portraits of Herr Von Beethoven? OBVIOUSLY, YOU HAVEN’T!!!

    I guess if you think that Herr Von Beethoven was black, then it must be true that the American, Martin Luther King was of white ancestery.

    Please stop riding on peoples coattails! You don’t do any justice to those of Black ancestry. It just makes you look stupid.

    Truly,

    Belle

  • Johan

    Dab:

    Can biographers be wrong? Generally speaking, yes.

    A look into any number of court cases will show you that when hearsay or testimony is contradicted by physical and scientific evidence, it gets rejected or re-interpreted.

    This shows that such evidence is more important than testimony.

    However, in some cases, what the Beethoven’s biographers have said, and what you are telling others they have said, are probably different things (a general problem with hearsay).

  • http://www.anus.com/etc/people/gasjews/beethoven-web.jpg S.R. Prozak

    Beethoven was indeed black. We can derive this through the simple formula:

    1. Only oppressed people make great music.
    2. Beethoven had no other means of being oppressed.
    3. Beethoven made great music.
    .: Beethoven was black

    More info at my website:
    http://www.anus.com/etc/people/gasjews/beethoven-web.jpg

  • http://www.geocities.com/dabjazz/page7.html dab

    It’s amazing isn’t it how people just won’t let the truth be?
    when you see people like, President W. Harding, or A.Hamilton and people like Haydn, as well as Ludwig “Louis” van, it’s hard to take, but seems easy to not want to learn much about it. Some people do fall in love, ya know and create a human. His contemporaies all agreed about his blackness.

    http://www.fact-index.com/l/li/list_of_multiracial_people.html

    It’s hard I know. Thomas Holloran’s paintings must really hurt. check it out.
    http://www.gis.net/~halloran/index.html

    Black Irish, Black Duch, Italian, German it’s all a melting pot of mixed love, and we are not as dumb as we seem, or are we? He was and still is a musical genius who’s music cannot be stolen from him, like his identity. Jesus? Well..see what happened?

  • Johan

    I see.

    We cannot trust paintings made directly from the live Beethoven , but we can trust a painting of Beethoven by a man who has never seen Beethoven.

    Makes sense.

  • Christina

    Johan, let’s be realistic, how many artists do you know that can do accurate self portraits?? Enough with the low blow. The minute anyone mentions that someone that achieved something great in this world could possible by of Black descent everyone gets all defensive as if it can’t be. So you can “trust paintings made directly from the live Beethoven” but you can’t trust actual accounts from his live friends who knew him and were around him on a daily basis. And as for the dark complexion really being olive skinned, let’s get real, he was called “Mor” and if you know your history straight and simple that’s black, not olive, tan, peachy cream or whatever. I myself being of mixed ancestry can account for the fact that it is possible to have mixed features. Maybe a dark skin color, that wild unruly hair, his strong features. let’s use our heads and stop trying to undermine people by getting all “scientific”. And Johan why don’t u check into that nearest medical school library of yours and get a Physical anthropology book on human classification through OBSERVATION.
    Brought to u by a current college freshman.
    Math and Biological Science Major

  • Johan

    His contemporaies all agreed about his blackness.

    No. That is incorrect.

  • belle

    Christina,

    Where does this information come from???? Have you ever studied Beethoven, music, etc. etc. Please don’t make unfounded comments.

    Do you not realize that there are living descendents of the Beethoven family? I can assure you that they are not of black ancestery. The Beethovens are of Flemish and German heritage.

    Have you been to Wien, have you seen the actual portraits?

  • Johan

    The minute anyone mentions that someone that achieved something great in this world could possible by of Black descent everyone gets all defensive as if it can’t be.

    You can stop that, because it won’t work.

    Also, you’ll probably find better examples of people getting “all defensive as if it can’t be” in the responses to my comments.

    And as for the dark complexion really being olive skinned, let’s get real, he was called “Mor” and if you know your history straight and simple that’s black, not olive, tan, peachy cream or whatever.

    That is also incorrect. There are other definitions for this word, and what is meant by the word probably depends on the context.

    Maybe a dark skin color, that wild unruly hair, his strong features. let’s use our heads and stop trying to undermine people by getting all “scientific”. And Johan why don’t u check into that nearest medical school library of yours and get a Physical anthropology book on human classification through OBSERVATION.

    We can look at Beethoven’s skin color as artists saw it,Beethoven’s hair or the features of the living and the dead Beethoven.

    Or we can ignore these, and try to interpret someone else’s words, and pretend that we know what was meant by them.

  • belle

    Christina,

    Obivously, you know nothing whatsoever about Europeans. As stated time and time again, “Mor” for Europeans means olive complexion. And olive complexion is common among Europeans.

    Herr von Beethoven was NOT black, or of any black ancestery. It’s ridiculous of anyone to assume that he was black, and it is very ignorant.

    Have you been to Wien? Have you studied Herr von Beethoven and his masterpieces?

    You probably know absolutely nothing about Ludwig von Beethoven.

    Regards, Belle B.

  • Johan

    Dear Belle,

    These people probably don’t know what Wien is, and don’t care.

    What you have here is a mass movement called Afro-centrism. You can’t argue with these people, because you are questioning their belief system.

    If one item is disproved, you’ve wrecked their house of cards. So they won’t admit any evidence that contradicts them.

    Just look at the other ridiculous claims that they make in the discussion: Blacks invented the street light, the refrigerator, etc.

    Beleive it or not, this is probably being taught as fact in American schools.

    Which tells you something about America.

  • belle

    Dear Johan,

    These individuals are very very disrespectful. When did they decide to show an interest in Beethoven? I would dare them to travel to Germany and make such accusations.

    It’s unbelievable how these individuals, (and I don’t accuse the African Americans)can make such assumptions. They know that they are wrong. Thye know nothing of European history or society.

    Can you imagine Beethoven being black? THAT IS BEYOND IMAGINATION! Do you think that Europeans would have recognized him back in that time? Absolutely not!!

    It’s interesting how these individuals of African heritage haven’t responded since my last posting. Just let them. I will put them to the challenge. We’ll see how much they truely know about Ludwig von Beethoven.

    Have a nice day Johan.

    Regards, Belle

  • Johan

    Here are some images of people from North Africa (Moors). It is obvious that they are not black.
    (click on the links).


    a Moroccan woman

    Moroccan men

    An Arab

    Miss Algeria

    (Not that this has anything to do with Beethoven.)

    I think the problems with Afrocentrism – and its followers – are pretty obvious, right?

  • moor

    I happened upon this page researching african history and facts and found this discussion very exciting. the purpose of this discussion concerns if Beethoven is “black” or not, so if you are taking part in this discussion that is what your discussion should deal with. Now, since these ignorant statements are abundant I will only rebuke them with swift precision:

    1st ignorant comment:
    SInce the indigenous populations of Europe are white, and black populations didn’t exist there, there is little likelihood that an individual in Europe was black. – jay

    crazy! The first civilization of Europe was established on the island of Crete. It is called the Minoan Culture, after King Minos, an early legendary ruler of the island. The ancestors of the Cretans were natives of Africa, a branch of Western Ethiopians. Furthermore, British archaeologist Arthur Evans (1851-1941), who conducted excavations on the island, was convinced of African migrations to ancient Crete and noted “the multiplicity of these connections with the old indigenous race of the opposite African coast.” The late African-American cultural historian John G. Jackson (1907-1993) advocated the view the Minoan civilization was rooted in Africa, and believed that the ancestors of the Minoans “dwelt in the grasslands of North Africa before that area dried up and became a great desert. As the Saharan sands encroached on their homeland, they took to the sea, and in Crete and neighbouring islands set up a maritime culture.”

    Also, another example of how Africans have been in europe for centuries is a woman called Philippa. Philippa was the daughter of William of Hainault, a lord in part of what is now Belgium. When she was nine the King of England, Edward II, decided that he would marry his son, the future Edward III, to her, and sent one of his bishops, a Bishop Stapeldon, to look at her. He described her as: “The lady whom we saw has not uncommonly hair, betwixt blue-black and brown. Her head is cleaned shaped; her forehead high and broad, and standing somewhat forward. Her face narrows between the eyes, and the lower part of her face is still more narrow and slender than the forehead. Her eyes are blackish brown and deep. Her nose is fairly smooth and even, save that is somewhat broad at the tip and flattened, yet it is no snub nose. Her nostrils are also broad, her mouth fairly wide. Her lips somewhat full and especially the lower lip…all her limbs are well
    set and unmaimed, and nought is amiss so far as a man may see. Moreover, she is brown of skin all over, and much like her father, and in all things she is pleasant enough, as it seems to us.”

    Four years later Prince Edward went to visit his bride-to-be and her family, and fell in live with her. She was betrothed to him and in 1327, when she was only 14, she arrived in England. The next year, when she was 15, they married and were crowned King and Queen in 1330 when she was heavily pregnant with her first child and only 17.

    This first child was called Edward, like his father, but is better known as the Black Prince. Many say that he was called this because of the colour of his armour, but there are records that show that he was called ‘black’ when he was very small. The French called him ‘Le Noir’.

    Also, the history and legends of Scotland confirm the existence of “purely Black people.” We see one of them in the person of Kenneth the Niger. During the tenth century (long before 1770 when B was born) Kenneth the Niger ruled over three provinces in the Scottish Highlands. The historical and literary traditions of Wales reflect similar beliefs. According to Gwyn Jones (perhaps the world’s leading authority on the subject), to the Welsh chroniclers, “The Danes coming in by way of England and the Norwegians by way of Ireland were pretty well all black: Black Gentiles, Black Norsemen, Black Host.”

    Okay, one more. The fabled story of the ancient and stupendous African general and warrior-king Memnon and his display of courage and prowess at the Greek siege of Troy was one of the most widely circulated and celebrated epics in the annals of Greek and Roman mythology. Memnon, described as “black as ebony, and the handsomest man alive,” is mentioned repeatedly in the works of such early writers as Hesiod, Ovid, Pindar, Diodorus Siculus, Strabo and Virgil. Arctinus of Miletus composed an epic poem entitled Ethiopia in which Memnon was the leading figure. Quintus of Smyrna credits Memnon with “bringing the countless tribes of his people who live in Ethiopia, land of the black man,” to Troy in support of its war against the hostile coalition of Greek city-states. It was written that: “Memnon came to help them. Memnon was lord over the dark Ethiopians, and the host he brought seemed infinite. The Trojans were delighted to see him in their city.”

    2nd ignorant comment:
    Mor” for Europeans means olive complexion. And olive complexion is common among Europeans. – belle

    which europeans are you writing of. Europeans have always associated moor with black skin. olive skin, for some, came after centuries of race mixing. belle, these same Moors helped reintroduce Europe to civilization. As early as the Middle Ages, and as early as the seventeenth century, “The Moors were,” according to the Oxford English Dictionary, “commonly supposed to be mostly black or very swarthy, and hence the word is often used for negro.” Dr. Chancellor Williams stated that “The original Moors, like the original Egyptians, were Black Africans.” At the beginning of the eighth century Moorish soldiers crossed over from Africa into Spain, Portugal, and France, where their swift victories became the substance of legends. To the Christians of early Europe there was no question regarding the ethnicity of the Moors, and numerous sources support the view that the Moors were a black-skinned people. Morien, for example, is the adventure of a heroic Moorish knight supposed to have lived during the days of King Arthur. Morien is described as “all black: his head, his body, and his hands were all black.” In the French epic known as the Song of Roland the Moors are described as “blacker than ink.” William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. Christopher Marlowe used African and Moor interchangeably. Arab writers further buttress the Black identity of the Moors. The powerful Moorish emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as “a brown man with wooly hair.” Black soldiers, specifically identified as Moors, were actively recruited by Rome, and served in Britain, France, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. St. Maurice, patron saint of medieval Europe, was only one of many Black soldiers and officers under the employ of the Roman Empire.

    3rd ignorant comment:
    Obviously, you know nothing whatsoever about Europeans. As stated time and time again, “Mor” for Europeans means olive complexion. And olive complexion is common among Europeans. Herr von Beethoven was NOT black, or of any black ancestry. It’s ridiculous of anyone to assume that he was black, and it is very ignorant. Have you been to Wien? Have you studied Herr von Beethoven and his masterpieces? You probably know absolutely nothing about Ludwig von Beethoven.

    Everybody knows about Europeans. The issue is that few know about or are ready to recognize Africans. I’ve already addressed how Europeans commonly identified moor or mor. Also, why do you continue to ask if people have studied Beethoven. B is well known. Why do you doubt people’s knowledge of B when you continue to show numerous signs of ignorance yourself? Let’s go this route, since none of us where there, let’s look at what people who were there in the time of B said about him. For this, look no further than the quote at the start of this discussion from Andre de Hevesy telling of what Prince Esterhazy said about Beethoven: ‘What!’exclaimed the prince, ‘the music is by this blackamoor? ‘Well, my fine blackamoor, henceforward, thou art in my service.'” What’s even more interesting is that blackamoor is a European word used by Europeans to describe the darkest of the moors. So, tell me: how can you continue to doubt these factual statements. Are you suggesting that they are false or where not spoken? If so, well that’s another matter. But none the less, it is the initial argument and cannot be denied as being said. You see, Africans have such a long history on this planet you can’t match facts for facts against it, there is simply too much African fact. And you’ll notice how proud the views on African pride are in this discussion. Well, get use to it because as more and more of these discussions continue and as recent events are showing us, the truth about Africans roots in all civilizations will only grow and racial harmony and peace will gain grown. Why? Because it is undeniable fact. The whole dna argument was shot down by “One”, which even I thought at first might be a good argument, but we were sown the truth once again. No, I fully expect an ignorant response to come against my text, but that’s EXPECTED. You see, Africans are wonderful people, we have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. We have always fought for freedom for all of man kind. White people always is mistake our pride for reverse racism, but again, that is EXPECTED. Why? Because like I said, we already know your history. But it’s not about who is better, it’s about showing respect where respect is due. Do you think Africans will just disappear and shut if. If you know anything about is is that we are a strong people, that is why were are still here. No other race has and continues to face as much scientific racism as we do. But the truth and time will set us and all of man kind free, just as the moors set jews free from persecutions from the visigoths in early spain and racial harmony was abound. Herr von Beethoven WAS black.

  • moor

    Okay, I couldn’t hold this information back. Unlike most unfortunate people, facts about African history are limited. Yet fortunately, that is slowly changing. Hence, here are further factual statements said about Herr von Beethoven by people who were alive during his time and/or wrote biographies about him. Oh, please overstand that not all so-called black people have name like Tyron or Antwon. Our names span all of civilization and culture, so don’t for once assume that a name like Herr von Beethoven is not that of an African man. Honestly, I can understand why there is such disbelief on the part of our White brethren that Beethoven — considered Europe’s greatest classical music composer, is in fact Moor. Well, all I can say is get over it because this is just the beginning of facts about African people that are soon to surface. Okay, without further delay … Let’s start with what some of Beethoven’s contemporaries and biographers say about his appearance. Frau Fisher, a close friend of Beethoven, described him with “blackish-brown complexion.” Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, used these terms to describe him: “Negroid traits, dark skin, flat, thick nose.”
    Emil Ludwig, in his book “Beethoven,” says: “His face reveals no trace of the German. He was so dark that people dubbed him Spagnol [dark-skinned].” Fanny Giannatasio del Rio, in her book “An Unrequited Love: An Episode in the Life of Beethoven,” wrote “His somewhat flat broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes and swarthy [dark] complexion, pockmarked into the bargain, gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto [a person who has one Negro parent and one White parent].” C. Czerny stated, “His beard — he had not shaved for several days — made the lower part of his already brown face still darker.” University of Southern Colorado Professor Elmer Wells in a paper titled “Beethoven — His Negroid Characteristics” wrote, “The physical traits of Ludwig van Beethoven leave little doubt as to his racial identity. He was a black man, with nappy hair, flat nose and thick lips.”
    Furthermore, the following are one word descriptions of Beethoven from various writers: Grillparzer, “dark”; Bettina von Armin, “brown”; Schindler, “red and brown”; Rellstab, “brownish”; Gelinek, “short, dark.”
    Newsweek, in its Sept. 23, 1991 issue stated, “Afrocentrism ranges over the whole panorama of human history, coloring in the faces: from Australopithecus to the inventors of mathematics to the great Negro composer Beethoven.”
    And to respond the idea that because Beethoven cam from German and Flemish parents that he could not be African, let me school you on the fact that Black Celts (Silures) & Black Vikings mixed with the Scandinavia people. The black blood type is common even in Nordic Europe where intermixing has been happening since antiquity. Even Hitler’s family had some Black blood, reports the New York Times 7/1/40. The Huns included Black Mongolians who mixed heavily with the ‘Aryan Germans.’ Furthermore, in the early modern period many Africans and ex-slaves from the Americas lived with aristocratic families in the courts of German territories or with wealthy bourgeois families as highly regarded and privileged domestic servants. Blacks also served in the military of many German states, most as splendidly dressed musicians; many were recruited by German troops in North America. Moravian missionaries from Saxony also brought ex-slaves with them to Germany from the Caribbean. (See Peter Martin, Schwarze Teufel, edle Mohren: Afrikaner in Bewußtsein und Geschichte der Deutschen). Blacks were numerous, but also because they in many ways had an important cultural impact, as their presence in German art, literature, public debate, and daily life. There are hundreds of paintings from this era portraying black and white people together. In Germany’s Hesse and Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel area, where a relatively large number of Africans lived during this period, there had been a tradition of black servants and military musicians in these regions since the seventeenth century, and in the eighteenth century these two “dukedoms” [areas] provided the largest contingents of German soldiers fighting in the Revolutionary War in America. After the war many former slaves accompanied the German troops back to Europe, so that by the late 1780s the number of Africans in these two German states increased considerably, and Beethoven born during this time. Hesse and Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel provided ideal conditions for a microhistorical investigation of both the African and German experience, and perceptions of each other over the course of two centuries. However, in some ways the treatment of black musicians, soldiers, and servants was similar to that of their white colleagues, but there were fundamental differences in Germany. The lives of many Africans were described in terms of “privileged dependency.” Unlike France and England, none of the German states had a legally defined status for people who had been bought as slaves in other countries and then brought into Germany. Blacks were subject to property relationships and were considered valuable possessions, however they could move about freely within white society; their de facto slave status was quite different than it was for African slaves in other Western countries. Many Africans and the African Americans who came with the Hessian soldiers married into local families of all social strata and had children. Hello! German historian Vera Lind states, “In the stratified, hierarchical society of early modern Germany, “mixed” marriages of social unequals usually were undesired, yet such marriages between blacks and whites did not produce hostile reactions. The numerous examples of intermarriage are an indicator of social integration.”
    Also of importance to note, is that throughout the early modern period, German states welcomed Africans and maintained a generally positive image of them. Besides acceptance and integration into daily life, their presumed beauty and the darkness of their skin also elevated them to the status of privileged, highly valued, exotic attractions. Furthermore, none of the German states were even involved in slavery and the slave trade; these topics nonetheless were constantly debated among the so-called “Enlightenment thinkers” which included men like Immanuel Kant (1724-1804), Johann Friedrich Blumenbach (1752-1840), Georg Forster (1754-1794), and Johann Gottfried Herder (1744-1803). These German intellectuals almost uniformly condemned slavery because they viewed it as incompatible with the principles of humanity and Christianity.
    Furthermore, the dissolution of the Christian worldview that had put purely theological definitions of human beings no longer seemed satisfactory, and learned people everywhere sought new scientific explanations. The presence of black people in the German territories influenced this debate, in which many prominent German Enlightenment thinkers were involved as I mentioned some above. However, some, such as Samuel Thomas Soemmerring (1755-1830), a professor of anatomy in Hesse-Kassel, conducted their own anthropological research. Soemmerring dissected the corpses of four black soldiers who after the war had accompanied the returning Hessians and died shortly thereafter (Soemmerring published his research findings in 1784 in a book called Über die körperliche Verschiedenheit des Mohren vom Europäer). The results of this anthropological debate were contradictory and did not provide any definitive answers. Those involved employed diverse methods in various fields and debated whether the differences they found were based on “race” – a concept based on skin color – natural-environmental factors, or culture. The German position in the debate on difference was a developing consensus that there were differences in groups of humans but that these differences did not imply any moral or intellectual inequalities between them. In other words, they strongly agreed on difference without hierarchical ranking. There were those who deviated from this position, like Soemmerring, who concluded in his book that Africans belonged to a lower order of humans, closer to apes than to the higher order of humans, or the historian Christoph Meiners (1747-1810), who saw Africans as rightly enslaved because of their low standing in the human hierarchy since Creation. But these exceptions were heavily criticized or, in the case of Meiners, not even taken seriously by their colleagues.
    Basically, having no economic, political, or social dependency on slavery meant less racist views and a greater focus on the positive, exotic appeal of Africans. This is part of the reason why Beethoven and many other Africans could live respectful lives in Germany. I will stop right here, but honestly, I could go on forever with these facts. Hopefully this information will cause you to research for yourself, travel the world, teach others, and discover how great African people were, are, and will continue to be despite the circumstances. Peace, unity, and RESPECT.

  • Johan

    Reply to make-beleive Moor:

    the purpose of this discussion concerns if Beethoven is “black” or not, so if you are taking part in this discussion that is what your discussion should deal with.

    You seem to have trouble following your own advice. Most of the stuff that you wrote has nothing to do with Beethoven.

    For this, look no further than the quote at the start of this discussion from Andre de Hevesy telling of what Prince Esterhazy said about Beethoven: ‘What!’exclaimed the prince, ‘the music is by this blackamoor? ‘Well, my fine blackamoor, henceforward, thou art in my service.'”

    Look at the statement again. It is about Haydn, not Beethoven, isn’t it?

    The rest of what you wrote is nonsense.

  • Johan

    Once again, this has nothing to do with Beethoven, but the Afrocentrists keep bringing up unrelated nonsense (which isn’t surprising).

    Here are some images of Moors, as they portrayed themselves:

    Images from the Tale of Ayad and Bayad, Islamic Spain early 13th century:

    Bayad and Ayad – 2
    Bayad and Ayad – 3
    Bayad and Ayad – 4
    Bayad and Ayad – 5
    Bayad and Ayad – 6

    It’s obvious, isn’t it?

    Also, here are Illustrations from Cantigas de Santa Maria, 13th century, reign of Alfonso X

    Click
    Muslim soldiers under Almanzor (al-Mansur) attack San Esteban de Gormaz, in 989 CE.
    Muslim (“Moor”) troops from North Africa kidnap a German nobleman from the Portuguese coast and force him onto a ship. The crew is mostly light-skinned as a whole — the Black African soldiers that are present among the crew members are obviously a minority. Even so, it was the exotic-looking “black” contingent of these armies that stirred the hearts and imaginations of medieval Europe, and sometimes appear prominently as symbols in medieval art, literature, and heraldry. However, that kind of “blackamoor” symbolism (such as black African heads on coat-of-arms) does not constitute evidence that most Muslim occupiers of southern Europe looked like sub-Saharan Africans, or that black Africans were the driving force behind Islamic civilization in Europe. In fact, the evidence in these images suggests that wasn’t the case at all.
    The naval force of mouros turn their attention to Arrendaffe, their admiral. Although a black African rower is visible, the rest of the crew including the admiral is obviously of a paler shade.
    An army of Muslims approaches a Christian city. Again, the troops are described as mouros in the Old Galician writing at the top of the clicked-on picture (Como os mouros veneron cercar huna cidade).
    This shows an army of Muslims, mostly pale but with a dark-skinned minority, especially among the foot soldiers and servants in the rear.
    Muslims ask their king to have a church removed from La Arrijaca.
    Moroccan soldiers in a tent
    King Umar al-Murtada, the Almohad ruler of Morocco, is persuaded to ally with Christians
    Moroccan soldiers and Christian allies, readying for battle in the city of Marrakech

    Five mouros in Portugal, throwing a statue of the Virgin Mary into the sea. This miniature, together with the rest, depicts the Muslim population of Spain as predominantly light-skinned. (Like before, the medieval writing atop the full image explicitly refers to them as Moors: Como os mouros deytaron a omagen de Sancta Maria no mar por desonrala.)
    Muslim troops from Granada, on their way to attack a Spanish castle.
    The King Of Granada Holds Court
    a Spanish woman manipulating her black servant as a pawn in a plot against her daughter-in-law. At least one site I saw displays this picture as if it supports the “Moors = black” theory. It doesn’t.

    Alphonso X’s Book of Games, 13th century:
    This picture of particularly dark-skinned Muslims is shown on various “Afrocentric” web pages attempting to prove that Black Africans dominated Spanish society during the Muslim occupation. But further examination of more pictures from the same Book of Games reveals…

    Three Arab Scholars consulting a manuscript

    Three Arab ladies, one playing the lute

    More pictures of Moors

    Some more pictures of Moors

    An Arab and a Spanish girl

    A Jew And An Arab, from the Book of Games

    A Spaniard and an Arab playing in a tent

    Dr. Chancellor Williams stated that “The original Moors, like the original Egyptians, were Black Africans.”

    You will find anyone who will write or say anything.

  • Johan

    If anyone couldn’t view those images, they can go to the relevant web-page by clicking here…

    …or here

  • belle

    Dear Moor;

    You may go on and on and on. It makes no difference. I suppose in your eyes the majority of Europeans are Black. It shows that you are very ignorant of our society. Through your words I can see that you have very deep racist views. I did not slander the African Americans, but you seem not to care what you say or assume about Europeans.

    You translate information to suit yourself. And by the way, your discussion was not about Beethoven.

    Believe me, I do know much about the Beethoven heritage. So do not make assumptions. He was not black. Don’t forget he does have existing descendents, and there is much genealogy researched. Please show respect.

    Good day,
    Belle (Wien)

  • belle

    Dear Moor:

    Da du Deutsch sprichst! Da irrst du dich aber gewaltig! Meinst du das im Ernst!

    Where did you get your reference from regarding Prinz Esterhazy? I guess from a book in America.

    You refer to Europeans as “white people”, but Africans as “African”. Have some respect. You are definitely a racist. I feel very sorry for you.

    I do not resent people of African descent, but I do dislike it when anyone (and I mean anyone, whatever their race) make assumptions about others.

    In einfauchen worten, HERR VON BEETHOVEN war nicht SCHWARZ.

    Good day
    Belle

  • moor

    rassistisches huh? rassistisches huh? das ist interessant. How quickly you resort to the word racist when your false beliefs and statements are challenged by fact. For those of you who claim the know something a bout moors clear know very little. Keep reading, learning and experiencing and perhaps I will respond. Perhaps you will learn about moors. All your links to pictures of moors are unavailable – fool! Also, question yourself about who drew those pictures that nobody can view. And no you know that moors date back way before the 13th century. 13th century. That’s comical. Do you know how far moors go back? Clue: before the 20th century. Using photos during the time of alfonzo after the reign of the moors is very interesting as well. It is known fact that it was the black African moors that conquered spain from the murderous visigoths who tortured the jews – if you know jewish roots you will know why – i’ll touch on later. It is also true that the moors were both dark skin and light skin arabs and both play large roles in the moulding of spain’s glory. In fact, I look very much like many of the lighter skin (caramel completion) moors of today, but I am black with obvious black features and hair. my mother is very fair, almost white but she is black with black features and hair. Before the moors entered spain, there was plenty of mixing between dark black Africans and lighter black Africans (berbers), and arabs, but they were all muslim. Have you looked and pictures of moors while they were actually in power? Also, do you not value the words of people who lived during those times and described black African moors? You use pictures of moors but obviously have no clue about the time of those happenings and how it relates to when the moors were in power and what lands they controlled at given times. You used illustrations from Cantigas de Santa Maria from 13th century, reign of Alfonso X, when the reign of the moors was from 711 and 1492, and the latter years they were losing control. Also, it is important note that when the moor arrived in spain, they did not bring their African women with them to war. So, they intermarried the white women in spain at the time, and after over 700 years, their skin colours were more diverse. again, fact that refutes your claims to moors not being black. all your “sketches” are supposedly from the 13th century. also, did you know that after the invasion of 711 came other waves of Moors even darker? it was this occupation of portugal which accounts for the fact that even noble families had absorbed the blood of moors. from that time onwards, racial mixing in portugal, as in spain, and elsewhere in europe which came under the influence of moors, took place on a large scale. that is why historians claim that “Portugal is in reality a Negroid land,” and that when Napoleon explained that “Africa begins at the Pyrenees,” he meant every word that he uttered. even the world-famed shrine in Portugal, Fatima, where Catholic pilgrims from all over the world go in search of miracle cures for their afflictions, owes its origin to the moors. the story goes that a Portuguese nobleman was so saddened by the death of his wife, a young Moorish beauty whom he had married after her conversion to the christian faith, that he gave up his title and fortune and entered a monastery. his wife was buried on a plateau called Sierra de Aire. It is from there that the name of Fatima is derived. where are your facts? Again, black people across Africa have different skin tones and features — simple. you challenge the people who I quote, well what makes your references correct and not mine? Unlike you, my knowledge encompasses a broad scope. My sources come from all over the world and from all races – historians, professors, scientists, etc. What is your response to that? To the dude, who used German to write to me knowing not everyone knows what hell he said. Well, let me school you on Hitler — a well know german white supremacist. It is known fact that his mother was a Jew. well, do you know where Judaism – what many Jews followed, came from? Ethiopia (Africa). learn truth! Please be aware that my words are not for fools but for people such as myself who search for truth without bias or racist thoughts. Also, if you don’t understand the basic principles of proving a point by using facts and other arguments to support your point, then you won’t understand why I is used several issues to prove of Beethoven was black, and you probably failed communication courses. Not once, did anyone provide any facts to counter my facts. Why? They truth can’t be refuted. I’ve made no assumptions, only truth statements. Take it live in ignorance. Regardless, you will come to witness, it this life or the next, the rise of history’s real facts. Old habits die hard so brace yourself. I have no sympathy for the fools who call me racist when I am not. My people birthed all of mankind so how could I hate mankind. I simply thirst for verified truth. You will come to see that the growing number of scholars from all walks of life reveal facts opposite from what many of you have shared today. Also, I did not intend to disrespect the person who thought by calling Europeans white. What I should have said were white-europeans. however, the fact remains that mr. beethoven ist SCHWARZ.

  • moor

    I had correct a type I made about dark skin, light skin, and arabs:

    rassistisches huh? rassistisches huh? das ist interessant. How quickly you resort to the word racist when your false beliefs and statements are challenged by fact. For those of you who claim the know something a bout moors clear know very little. Keep reading, learning and experiencing and perhaps I will respond. Perhaps you will learn about moors. All your links to pictures of moors are unavailable – fool! Also, question yourself about who drew those pictures that nobody can view. And no you know that moors date back way before the 13th century. 13th century. That’s comical. Do you know how far moors go back? Clue: before the 20th century. Using photos during the time of alfonzo after the reign of the moors is very interesting as well. It is known fact that it was the black African moors that conquered spain from the murderous visigoths who tortured the jews – if you know jewish roots you will know why – i’ll touch on later. It is also true that the moors were both dark skin, light skin, and arabs and both play large roles in the moulding of spain’s glory. In fact, I look very much like many of the lighter skin (caramel completion) moors of today, but I am black with obvious black features and hair. my mother is very fair, almost white but she is black with black features and hair. Before the moors entered spain, there was plenty of mixing between dark black Africans and lighter black Africans (berbers), and arabs, but they were all muslim. Have you looked at pictures of moors while they were actually in power? Also, do you not value the words of people who lived during those times and described black African moors? You use pictures of moors but obviously have no clue about the time of those happenings and how it relates to when the moors were in power and what lands they controlled at given times. You used illustrations from Cantigas de Santa Maria from 13th century, reign of Alfonso X, when the reign of the moors was from 711 and 1492, and the latter years they were losing control. Also, it is important note that when the moor arrived in spain, they did not bring their African women with them to war. So, they intermarried the white women in spain at the time, and after over 700 years, their skin colours were more diverse. again, fact that refutes your claims to moors not being black. all your “sketches” are supposedly from the 13th century. also, did you know that after the invasion of 711 came other waves of Moors even darker? it was this occupation of portugal which accounts for the fact that even noble families had absorbed the blood of moors. from that time onwards, racial mixing in portugal, as in spain, and elsewhere in europe which came under the influence of moors, took place on a large scale. that is why historians claim that “Portugal is in reality a Negroid land,” and that when Napoleon explained that “Africa begins at the Pyrenees,” he meant every word that he uttered. even the world-famed shrine in Portugal, Fatima, where Catholic pilgrims from all over the world go in search of miracle cures for their afflictions, owes its origin to the moors. the story goes that a Portuguese nobleman was so saddened by the death of his wife, a young Moorish beauty whom he had married after her conversion to the christian faith, that he gave up his title and fortune and entered a monastery. his wife was buried on a plateau called Sierra de Aire. It is from there that the name of Fatima is derived. where are your facts? Again, black people across Africa have different skin tones and features — simple. you challenge the people who I quote, well what makes your references correct and not mine? Unlike you, my knowledge encompasses a broad scope. My sources come from all over the world and from all races – historians, professors, scientists, etc. What is your response to that? To the dude, who used German to write to me knowing not everyone knows what hell he said. Well, let me school you on Hitler — a well know german white supremacist. It is known fact that his mother was a Jew. well, do you know where Judaism – what many Jews followed, came from? Ethiopia (Africa). learn truth! Please be aware that my words are not for fools but for people such as myself who search for truth without bias or racist thoughts. Also, if you don’t understand the basic principles of proving a point by using facts and other arguments to support your point, then you won’t understand why I is used several issues to prove of Beethoven was black, and you probably failed communication courses. Not once, did anyone provide any facts to counter my facts. Why? They truth can’t be refuted. I’ve made no assumptions, only truth statements. Take it live in ignorance. Regardless, you will come to witness, it this life or the next, the rise of history’s real facts. Old habits die hard so brace yourself. I have no sympathy for the fools who call me racist when I am not. My people birthed all of mankind so how could I hate mankind. I simply thirst for verified truth. You will come to see that the growing number of scholars from all walks of life reveal facts opposite from what many of you have shared today. Also, I did not intend to disrespect the person who thought by calling Europeans white. What I should have said were white-europeans. however, the fact remains that mr. beethoven ist SCHWARZ.

  • moor

    To john,

    i made typo when I included the statement: For this, look no further than the quote at the start of this discussion from Andre de Hevesy telling of what Prince Esterhazy said about Beethoven: ‘What!’exclaimed the prince, ‘the music is by this blackamoor? ‘Well, my fine blackamoor, henceforward, thou art in my service.'” clearly made about Hayden by Andre de Hevesy. Honestly, I’m typing so fast, this is undedited, and I have so much to type about that I probably thru it in there along with mey ather points. But is interesting that Beethoven was taught everything he knows from a moor, huh? What do you say about my other points as follows:

    Frau Fisher, a close friend of Beethoven, described him with “blackish-brown complexion.” Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, used these terms to describe him: “Negroid traits, dark skin, flat, thick nose.”
    Emil Ludwig, in his book “Beethoven,” says: “His face reveals no trace of the German. He was so dark that people dubbed him Spagnol [dark-skinned].” Fanny Giannatasio del Rio, in her book “An Unrequited Love: An Episode in the Life of Beethoven,” wrote “His somewhat flat broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes and swarthy [dark] complexion, pockmarked into the bargain, gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto [a person who has one Negro parent and one White parent].” C. Czerny stated, “His beard — he had not shaved for several days — made the lower part of his already brown face still darker.” University of Southern Colorado Professor Elmer Wells in a paper titled “Beethoven — His Negroid Characteristics” wrote, “The physical traits of Ludwig van Beethoven leave little doubt as to his racial identity. He was a black man, with nappy hair, flat nose and thick lips.” Furthermore, the following are one word descriptions of Beethoven from various writers: Grillparzer, “dark”; Bettina von Armin, “brown”; Schindler, “red and brown”; Rellstab, “brownish”; Gelinek, “short, dark.”

    What do you say to that? Look it up for yourself.

  • belle

    Moor

    Entschuldigung, ich verstehe immer nah inicht. Du bist unverstandig!

    Belle B.

  • Johan

    Reply to so-called Moor:

    The images of the Moors are available
    here.

    Of course, since you know so much, you probably don’t need to look.

  • moor

    Ah, the infamous “belle” and “john” team. We must all have huge egos to still be going at it. Something to think about. Anyway, I eventually found the link that did work and provided it baseless, irrelevant, and inaccurate, in regards to who moors were during their time of power in my previous e-mail and as usual, NOBODY HAS BEEN ABLE TO REFUTE THE FACTS. Why? Because they make sense are based upon facts. But don’t take my words for it, research for yourself. I a few days, I will gather as many photos of moors as they were during the early and middle portions of their rule in Spain to show you further FACTS — es wird für viele von Ihnen erleuchten. In the meantime consider further quotes from people who were alive during the time of Beethoven, did biographies, or studied him:

    Carpani, who originally reported/related what was said about Hayden by Andre de Hevesy, said that “Haydn’s complexion gave room for the sarcasm.” And that Haydn had the title of “second professor of music but his new comrades called him The Moor.” (G. Carpani: Le Haydn, etc. Letter 5. Milan, 1812). Then, referring to the above incident, Alexander W. Thayer, perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven, said, “Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master, ‘Haydn.'” (Beethoven, Vol. I, p. 146). By “Moor” was meant “Negro.” Until recent times the German for “Negro” was “Mohr.”

    Paul Bekker, another very noted authority on Beethoven, says that “the most faithful picture of Beethoven’s head” shows him with “wide, thick lipped mouth, short, thick nose, and proudly arched forehead.” (Beethoven, p. 41, 1925. trans. Bozman). Thayer adds that Beethoven was an ugly little man, and no one would be more astonished than the great composer should he return and see how he has been idealized by sculptors and painters.

    Beethoven’s family originated in Belgium – a FACT, which had been ruled for centuries by the Spaniards – a FACT, who had large numbers of Negro soldiers in their army there – a FACT.

    Theophile Gautier speaks of a Belgian type characterized by brown skin and dark hair “a second race which the soldiers of the Spanish Duke of Alva have sown between Brussels and Cambrai.”

    In short, the general description of Beethoven, even to his frizzly hair, fits that of many an Afro-American, Afro-Canadian, and Caribbean mulatto. In the Southern United States Beethoven would have been forced to ride in the Jim Crow car.

    See also: Rogers, J.A., “Sex and Race,” Vol. I, pp. 288, 289,302 (1941) for other data on Beethoven’s Negro strain, one of which is from the new York Times. Also p. 8 for portrait of Beethoven drawn from life by Hofel, which clearly shows the Negro strain. For more extended proof as well as a picture of Beethoven’s life-mask see Sex and Race, Vol. 3, pp. 306-309.

    Furthermore, when you explore the accepted definition of “race” as it relates to black people, the World definition is (and continues to be) that “If you have a a portion of ‘Black’ blood in your lineage, you’re Black. Now, I’m currently in the process of researching why that is, but a friend of mine who practices medicine, says it ahs something to do with dominant genes. Anyway, I’m still learning about that and the facts behind it.

    That said, I contend that with all of the above evidence, one must conclude that Beethoven was AT LEAST of African descent. If he WASN’T black, then many people of African descent in the world would have to be excluded from being black as well, especially given Mr. Roger’s accounts of Beethoven’s descriptions.

    Now, john thinks I know it all, well, when you no facts and truth, it gives off that impression, but I try to not come across that way. Honestly, I’m a cool guy just searching for truth. for whatever reason, I was born they way I was, and like most of us, I have a natural tendency to look into things that concern me, and I found many untruths along the way. that’s all. You don’t have to agree with me, just prove me wrong with fact and logic. Simple. ultimately, we are of the human race and Beethoven was a great man. It’s discussions like these that allow truth to come out – whatever they may be, but I find that the trick is to reveal facts in a way that does not offend. We’re not perfect so it doesn’t come out that way. Anyway, I do believe that many of you have not taken a long enough look into the possibilities – and there so many of them that has become fact by a growing many, of Beethoven being Negroid.

  • belle

    Dear Moor:

    For your information, Herr von Beethoven’s hair was not frizzy, and was not black. It was dark brown, with grey. And I might add that it was totally straight. I have seen the lock of hair. And you?

    Regards, Belle

  • moor

    Now, I would like to adresss johan’s hilarious link to that racial identity web site that incriminates itself. Come on people. you need to educate yourself. First, these studioes were based upon current “depictions” of certain races. Over thousands of years, so skin colours will change and some do not change, and some change very little – FACT. Not once did the website say that it based it’s studies based upon people as they were during the early stages or during the times of early civilizations beigining in the 30th century to even during the time the moors were in spain. Hello, nobody si disputing they were a minority in tehse parts of the world – FACT. The point is that dispite being minorities, the played major roles in moulding the very same natiosn they were minorities in. but over hundreds of years, facial features shifted due to race mixing. These are words taken from this comical web site to prove that their “finds” are not from evidence or from analysis done from people during the time of the early civilizatiosn in Africa, Europe, etc.:

    “historical perspectives”
    – not historical evidence

    “illustrative photographs”
    – not true photographs

    “which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that “gene flow was more the exception than the rule,” attributing this result to “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.”
    – if this is meant to refute the moors entry into spain and elsewhere, well, sorry but they entered by force and thus broke the “Barrieres” when the African and arab moors for example crossed into spain.

    “”So far, our analyses have allowed a clear dissection of almost all NW African…paternal lineages into several components with distinct historical origins.”
    – what’s historical period? The New millenium?

    “the NW African Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 75% NW African Upper Paleolithic (H35, H36, and H38), 13% Neolithic (H58 and H71), 4% historic European gene flow (group IX, H50, H52), and 8% recent sub-Saharan African (H22 and H28).”
    – ah look, this website is so ridiculous it incriminates itself by stating that 75% of NW African gene Y-chrome pool is made up of NW African. Thanks for that.

    “Like Egyptians, the Phoenician seafarers and Islamic Moors are also frequently claimed by Afrocentrists, because both groups established colonies in North Africa and presumably intermarried with the indigenous populations. However, they were originally of Semitic origin, coming from the Middle East, and their forays into Africa seem not to have altered their racial character.”
    – many to seek to further discredit african legacy, some historians try to displace egypt from africa by classifying it as part of asia, but the ancient people of west aAsia were also black. evidence of the presence of African people in ancient Southwest Asia is documented by Homer, who describes the Blacks, or “Ethiopians,” as “dwelling at the ends of the earth, towards the setting and rising sun.” The Greek historian Ephorus wrote that “the Ethiopians were considered as occupying all the south coasts of both Asia and Africa, divided by the Red Sea into Eastern and Western Asiatic and African.” Sumerian civilization was an extension of Nile Valley civilization “of which Egypt was the noblest-born but not the only child.” The ancient Sumerians referred to themselves as the Blackheaded people. There is also no doubt that the oldest and most exalted deity of the Sumerians was Anu, a name that loudly recalls the thriving and widely-spread Black civilizers found at history’s dawn in Africa, Asia and even Europe. Eye-witness accounts, skeletal evidence, Biblical references, architectural patterns and oral traditions all point to an early African origin for the Sumerians of ancient southwest Asia. Furthermore, the ancient Sumerians were akin to the modern Black Dravidians of India. The Sumerians also had an affinity with a people known as the Elamites, the first Semitic group mentioned in the Bible (Gen. 10:22). the elamites were a black-skinned and woolly-haired people as the colorful glazed artwork on the royal palace walls of the ancient Persian city of Susa clearly show. Thus Abraham, the native of Sumerian and the founding father of the Israelite nation, was a black man. The black racial origins of the Patriarchs is not based on mere conjecture, it is in complete agreement with the picture one gets from examining the identity of the earliest inhabitants of southern Mesopotamia. The earliest civilization of Mesopotamia was that of the Sumerians, and they are designated in the Assyrio-Babylonian inscriptions as the black-heads or black-faced people, and they are shown on the monuments as beardless and with shaven heads. According to Samuel Kramer (From the Tablets of Sumer, Falcon’s Wing Press, 1956, p.60), they refer to themselves as “the blackheaded people.” Actually the Sumerian original reads “head-of-black people.” This easily distinguishes them from the Semitic Babylonians, who are shown with beards and long hair. From the myths and traditions of the Babylonians we learn that their culture came originally from the south. Sir Henry Rawlinson concluded from this and other evidence that the first civilized inhabitants of Sumer and Akkad were immigrants from the African Ethiopia. According to author, Drusilla D. Houston, Arabia was originally settled by two distinct races, an earlier Cushite Ethiopian race and a later Semitic race. In an article on Arabian states, written in Encyclopedia Britannica, the institutions of Yemen, Hadrabut, Oman, and adjoining districts point to an African origin. Arabia, Egypt, Sumer, and India were all colonies of the Cushite Empire. Lately, the Sumerian Empire downfall was due to northern invasions. the Indo-European and Semites invaded and destroyed the Sumerian civilization.

    “photographs”
    – this si so funny. I don’t remember learning about the moors in spain and Portugal during the days of early civilization wearing bow ties, Armani suites, and turtutle nexts. Honestly, the website is so clueless it’s set’s new records in studpidity and ignorance.

    And I can go on and on but I think I’ve made a point.

  • Johan

    Dear Mr. “Moor”:

    If you have any proof that the historical artifacts displayed on this site are not authentic, please share it with us…

    … unless of course you don’t have any.

    ; )

  • Johan

    Here is Beethovens life mask.

    … and here is his Death mask.

    And here is his hair.

    Not to mention the various paintings and drawings of him by his contemporaries.

  • moor

    Belle said:
    “For your information, Herr von Beethoven’s hair was not frizzy, and was not black. It was dark brown, with grey. And I might add that it was totally straight. I have seen the lock of hair. And you?”

    Well, belle, NO I have not seen his actual hair in person, but that does not refute that he is black. You’re crazy. this must be a joke. this is more parody because it actually serves further proof that he was black. dude, many negroids have dark-brown hair — FACT. my own mother, for example, and a few of my uncles have dark-brown hair. and it’s clear what grey hair is. hey, fyi, EVEN black people have grey hair. you really need to travel the world, belle. Have you been to Ireland? I have, and the black people of Ireland – yes Ireland – go see for yourself – have dark-brown hair – an alarmingly amount actually. I have pen-pal from Ireland who is black and I still keep communication with. fyi, ireland was also part of the Moorish empire. Furthermore, my wife – who is a black woman of brown skin, has a cousin who was born with sand-brown hair. plus, ask any black person and they will tell you that they know black people who have dark-brown, lighter hair, straight hair, and even grey and blue eyes. But let’s take a scientific approach. It is a known fact that many parts of Europe, from as early as the 18th century and still even today, have several mineral deficiencies in the earth’s soil and vitamin deficiencies like selenium in the diets of many Europeans. these deficiencies affect hair colour. But even so, black people with our such deficiencies can still have dark-brown hair etc. also, it is known fact that when the hair of Beethoven was analyzed, large amounts of lead was found in his body, and any body who know science knows that lead can cause an anaemic disorder in the blood which cause lightening (pale) of the skin. so, what do you say to these FACTS, belle?

  • moor

    johan,
    i’ev stated numerous facts to prove that the “historical artifacts displayed on this site are not authentic”. simply open your eyes read,and retain. okay. i now finished here. when people enter this discussion in teh future tehy will see how i hollistically counterred your false beliefs with FACT. enjoy your furtehr discussions.

  • Johan

    i’ev stated numerous facts to prove that the “historical artifacts displayed on this site are not authentic”. simply open your eyes read,and retain. okay. i now finished here. when people enter this discussion in teh future tehy will see how i hollistically counterred your false beliefs with FACT. enjoy your furtehr discussions.

    No. You didn’t.

  • Johan

    An appropriate quote for the occasion:

    “All active mass movements strive to interpose a fact-proof screen between the faithful and the realities of the world. They do this by claiming that the ultimate and absolute truth is already embodied in their doctrine and that there is no truth or certitude outside it.”

    -Eric Hoffer

  • Johan

    Here are some more images of Beethoven for people who are interested.

    A different view of the life mask. taken of Beethoven by Franz Klein (notice the straight hair).

    Another view of the life mask.

    Here is another view of the Letronne portrait. Here is an engraving that was made from this, by Blasius Höfel.

    Afrocentrists try to use distorted versions of this portrait.

    Beethoven in 1808, from the real, by Ferdinand Schnorr von Garolsfeld.

    Two drawings of Beethoven on his deathbed by
    Joseph Eduard Teltscher

    Joseph Dannhauser’s death-bed sketch of Beethoven. (Dannhauser also made the death mask)

    Here is one of the surviving locks of hair.

    Notice that the hair and masks reflect what we see in the drawings and paintings.

  • belle

    Dear Moor:

    You have quite the chip on your shoulder. I have never discussed or argued the point about race. I have only been discussing Beethoven.

    He was not from any black background. Believe me I know this. I have been familiar with Herr von Beethoven my ENTIRE life. He was of Flemish and German background. There was no integration of Spanish in his family. This I know for a FACT. And how did you come across your information? It is all assumptions, I can assure you.

    There are living descendents, as I said once before, and very indepth genealogy has been researched. You are in no position to make judgements or assumptions about the Beethoven family. I would be very careful if I were you.

    I am not here to dispute about the African heritage. I have respect for your heritage, please have some respect for others.

    You need to cool down. It doesn’t matter what you assume about the Beethoven family, it’s only the truth that matters. The Beethoven’s know their history!

    And by the way, I actually lived in Ireland for a couple of years. It is the land of the tribal Celts. They have a very very long history. Please note that the majority of Europeans have black hair, and this is due to the pigment in their hair, not their skin. The Irish are noted for very fair skin, and black hair, and it is definitely not linked with African.

    Why can’t you accept Europeans. You want to constantly link being black up with being European. That is unreal to my way of thinking. The world is made up of different races, and even if we all originated from Africa, it doesn’t make us all Black.

    Hochachtungsvoll,
    Belle

  • Johan

    Hi Belle,

    Its now use explaining to these people. Look at all of the wild claims, exagerations, and contradictions.

    The Vikings were black, blacks invented the refrigerator, Germans were tolerant of blacks, but too racist to paint accurate portraits of Beethoven, etc.

    These aren’t critical thinkers.

    What is surprising is that people in America have allowed this disease to established itself.

  • moor

    dear belle,

    i think you might have something for me:) just kidding, just a little poor humour. anyway, i’m an aries so having a chip on my shoulder is natural. i try to control it though, but knowledge makes it very hard. i’m working on that though. but anyway, i already provided you with facts about the influence of the moorish influence of germany. but somehow you forgot already so i will re-post the following from my previous entries:

    “And to respond the idea that because Beethoven cam from German and Flemish parents that he could not be African, let me school you on the fact that Black Celts (Silures) & Black Vikings mixed with the Scandinavia people. The black blood type is common even in Nordic Europe where intermixing has been happening since antiquity. Even Hitler’s family had some Black blood, reports the New York Times 7/1/40. The Huns included Black Mongolians who mixed heavily with the ‘Aryan Germans.’ Furthermore, in the early modern period many Africans and ex-slaves from the Americas lived with aristocratic families in the courts of German territories or with wealthy bourgeois families as highly regarded and privileged domestic servants. Blacks also served in the military of many German states, most as splendidly dressed musicians; many were recruited by German troops in North America. Moravian missionaries from Saxony also brought ex-slaves with them to Germany from the Caribbean. (See Peter Martin, Schwarze Teufel, edle Mohren: Afrikaner in Bewußtsein und Geschichte der Deutschen). Blacks were numerous, but also because they in many ways had an important cultural impact, as their presence in German art, literature, public debate, and daily life. There are hundreds of paintings from this era portraying black and white people together. In Germany’s Hesse and Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel area, where a relatively large number of Africans lived during this period, there had been a tradition of black servants and military musicians in these regions since the seventeenth century, and in the eighteenth century these two “dukedoms” [areas] provided the largest contingents of German soldiers fighting in the Revolutionary War in America. After the war many former slaves accompanied the German troops back to Europe, so that by the late 1780s the number of Africans in these two German states increased considerably, and Beethoven born during this time. Hesse and Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel provided ideal conditions for a microhistorical investigation of both the African and German experience, and perceptions of each other over the course of two centuries. However, in some ways the treatment of black musicians, soldiers, and servants was similar to that of their white colleagues, but there were fundamental differences in Germany. The lives of many Africans were described in terms of “privileged dependency.” Unlike France and England, none of the German states had a legally defined status for people who had been bought as slaves in other countries and then brought into Germany. Blacks were subject to property relationships and were considered valuable possessions, however they could move about freely within white society; their de facto slave status was quite different than it was for African slaves in other Western countries. Many Africans and the African Americans who came with the Hessian soldiers married into local families of all social strata and had children. Hello! German historian Vera Lind states, “In the stratified, hierarchical society of early modern Germany, “mixed” marriages of social unequals usually were undesired, yet such marriages between blacks and whites did not produce hostile reactions. The numerous examples of intermarriage are an indicator of social integration.””

    do you require more FACTS?

    also, i never denied or tried to prove that there is no such thing as a white race. that would be absurd. the white race came about after thousands of years of change from when the were once of the black race in Africa — FACT. however, depending the specific black genes, and the amount of race mixing, etc, some features change very little, some change allot, and in different ways. the other fact, is that despite white people being the majority in europe, black people migrated to europe and impacted upon the people of that continent, not as servants and colonials of europe but as the fathers of its first inhabitants, the creators of its first art, its first tools, and, in some places and historical periods, its masters and teachers, invaders and traders, its most venerated madonnas, saints and popes — FACT. now, why can’t you accept that? at least try to prove these facts incorrect. but you simply can’t!
    next. you said something about Ireland? something about: “It is the land of the tribal Celts. They have a very very long history.” you seem to think you know so much. well, i’ll have you know that one of my co-workers is an Irish women and she has verified what i’m about to teach you. but again, don’t accept what you are about to learn. instead, verify it for yourself.

    first, ireland was once part of the moorish empire; that is, the celts were Moslems, & there were black moors from N. africa also present in Ireland. But the moors were expelled by militant Christianity. also, the early Celtic crosses inscribed with the bismillah (“In the Name of God”, opening words of the Koran) are in kufic Arabic, found in Ireland? the celtic church, before its destruction by the roman hierarchy, maintained a close connection with the desert hermit-monks of egypt. also, as a side point, people sometimes forget that in the 18th century, in America, the Irish were generally considered “no better than Negroes”. in 1741 on St. Patrick’s Day in new york a riot broke out, involving a conspiracy which included Irish, African, & Native American men & women. some Irish conspirators were overheard to swear they’d kill as many “white people” as possible. the uprising failed & the plotters were executed. as the bodies of two hanged in the open air decayed in an Iron gibbet, “observers noticed a gruesome, yet instructive, transformation. the corpse of an Irishman turned black & his hair curly while the corpse of Caesar the African, bleached white. It was accounted a ‘wondrous phenomenon'” (Linebaugh & Rediker, “The Many-Headed Hydra”). but getting back to older times, in Malory’s Morte dArthur & Eschenbach’s Parzifal many Saracen (i.e. Moslem/Moorish) knights are depicted not as enemies but allies of the Celts — & in the latter book the entire story is attributed to Moorish sources. and fyi, an African king named Gormund ruled Ireland during the Anglo-Saxon period in England, which was reports by a medieval historian named Geoffrey, from Monmouth.

    furthermore, i think you should read a recent book written by an Irish journalist named Bob Quinn ( Atlantaean: Ireland’s North African & Maritime Heritage, Quartet books, London/NY, 1986 ). it will give you further proof of the rich african history in ireland. i read it and it was amazing. i his book, Quinn states the egyptian influence on the early Celtic Church — or Hispano-Moorish-Irish maritime connections — or the Barbary Pirates, and the fact that Irish pitates converted to Islam and took part in the Sallee Republic, a Moroccan corsair utopia. oh, i almost forget, here is probably some information the should interest you the most. it comes from a a U2 webpage. you know, the band U2. anyway, the web page has a conversation from Bono of U2 telling of the roots of their music and his account with Bob Quin. you read it for yourself at: http://www.atu2.com/news/connections/quinn/. the following is asnipit from the website:

    Bill also told me how Bono paid a visit to Quinn one time after hearing about his work, but that Quinn was less than impressed by him. ;) I did find this in the Wire Archives later, from a Muse online interview with Bono and The Edge:

    From dSIDES:

    [Bono]: We’re not really North Europeans. The roots of our music are Celtic, Middle-Eastern, Abyissian, that’s where it all comes from. We are not Europeans so we shouldn’t try to be. Let’s not be intimidated it.’

    Edge smiles wryly at Bono’s wired flow. ‘I love Bono’s theories about the idea that it came from North Africa, Bob Quinn had similar theories about where art and music came from to get to this country. it’s a very compelling argument but it’s still a mystery.”

    also, it is importnat not that the Black Celts (Silures) & Black Vikings vexed with the Scandinavia (norway and sweden) people and a prominent Viking of the eleventh century was Thorhall, who was aboard the ship that carried the early Vikings to the shores of North America. Thorhall was “the huntsman in summer and in winter the steward of Eric the Red. he was known to be a large man and strong, black, and like a giant, silent, and foul-mouthed in his speech, and always egged on Eric to the worst; he was a bad Christian.” another Viking, more notable than Thorhall, was Earl Thorfinn, “the most distinguished of all the earls in the Islands.” Thorfinn ruled over nine earldoms in Scotland and Ireland, and died at the age of seventy-five. his widow married the king of scotland. Thorfinn was described as “one of the largest men in point of stature, and ugly, sharp featured, and tawny [brown], and the most martial looking man. It has been related that he was the foremost of all his men.” plus, a man known as Halfdan the Black, who was Africoid, was the first king to unite Norway.

    okay, this officially marks my final dose of medicine into the many false beliefs posted on the web page. i promised myself that my previous entry would be my last, but the irish comment made me laugh so hard i had to respond. but again, future readers will read this discussion and see that i holistically overturned the false statements against Beethoven’s blackness and other numerous attacks again African history with FACT, LOGIC, PROOF, and TRUTH, and was not proven otherwise with the same vices. now, you can resume your comedy …

  • moor

    fyi, i’m not american.

  • Johan

    Mr. “Moor”,

    Are you aware of that there is a difference between facts and claims?

    What you have shown us are (unproven) claims, not facts.

    Also, you are lecturing a European on European history. Isn’t that ridiculuos?

  • Johan

    first, ireland was once part of the moorish empire; that is, the celts were Moslems, & there were black moors from N. africa also present in Ireland. But the moors were expelled by militant Christianity. also, the early Celtic crosses inscribed with the bismillah (“In the Name of God”, opening words of the Koran) are in kufic Arabic, found in Ireland?…etc…etc.

    No. That is incorrect. Ireland was not part of the Moorish Empire. The celts were not Moslems.

  • belle

    Moor:

    Please don’t comment on what you know nothing about. Oh, so you know someone from Ireland ( a coworker).

    You’re arrogant and self centred. Never have there existed Black Vikings or Black Celts. Do you not realize that the Celts no longer exist. The tribes perished soooo long ago.

    The Vikings were Scandanavian, and Celts lived throughout Europe, with the last standing being in Scotland.

    As for knowing Ireland. My mother is from Ireland, and I have lived there. Speaking the Gaelic as a matter of fact. The Irish are definitely not “deuthorra”.

    Why don’t you quit quoting other people. The discussion was originally about Beethoven, but somehow you go on and on about the world being black. You make me laugh. A small sample is when you implied that Beethoven’s hair was frizzy, and when I told you that I’ve seen his lock of hair and it’s totally straight. You change your opinion saying that Africans have straight hair too.

    Get real!

    Belle

  • belle

    Moor:

    The information you have gathered is oral related stories, that in Ireland hold no value.

    If you were of Irish ancestery you would know that “Black Irish” refers to 17th Century Irish immigrants who integrated with black slaves on the island of Monteserrat in the Caribbean. Also the term “Black Irish” refers to a name which the Irish Catholics had given to the Protestants when they backed British rule.

    Black Irish does not refer to Negroid/African living in Ireland. Nothing has ever been authenticated with regards to Irish women marrying survivors of the Spanish Armada either.

    I have the Irish black hair, and in the British Isles I am referred to as a “Dark Person”. This is especially true in Ireland and Scotland. Let me assure you that I am not of African heritage just because of this.

    Belle

    P.S. I am not a “Dude”.

  • belle

    Moor:

    I almost forgot to reply regarding Halfdan the Black.

    Being of European descent, I must tell you that he was named Halfdan the Black for his black hair, not dark skin. He was very fair, as he was a Norwegian. Halfdan the Black Gudrodsson was born in 823 in Vestfold, Norway and died in 863. His father was Gudrod Jagtkonge Halfdansson King of Vestfold, who was killed in 821. His mother was Alfhild Alfarinsdatter born 794 in Vestfold, Norway.

    You seem to just see the word “Black”, and you assume once again that it refers to Negroid. As I’ve said once before, the term black is always used by Europeans in reference to one’s hair colour, not skin colour.

    Belle

  • green_tea

    I have read the messages in this board and I must say that “Moor” has, by far, brought out the most striking and convincing argument with numerous information that even I have known myself, and I am a well educated white, European, man, who has lived in Italy for 6 years and France for 4 years. But this is simply my humble opinion.

    I found it shocking how Belle totally missed Moor’s argument about Beethoven’s hair and your claim of it being straight. From what I read, Moor did not switch from his original statements. He did not say that Beethoven’s hair was straight. Instead, I think he tried to show you that White people are not the only race of people who have straight hair, and he did so by pointing out that Black people have straight here as well, which I know to be a fact as well. His information was an effort to challenge your current perception of the kinds of people who have straight hair.

    I also know it to be a fact that there were African Vikings and was educated on that bit of information while attending university in Paris. We also learned about how many Viking excursions left mixed-race descendants. In fact, I studied about a well known Scandinavian Viking called Egil Skallagrimson, and for a while scientists tried to explain his abnormal height and size which was not characteristic of the majority of the people in that part of the world. A professor by the name of Prof. Seligman made some interesting findings which were then published and written by a man named MICHAEL PERKINS in Nature magazine. The is what Seligman discovered as written in the article:

    “On the other hand, the Egil family, with its, black hair, great height, thick skull, prognathism, precocity, and fits of rage, is curiously parallel to the tall negroid in everything except indolence, which was certainly displayed on the Grettir side, and pigmentation of the skin. Hamrammr may even be compared with the ‘Leopard Society’ prowling of West Africa. This parallel is interesting, because rock-tracings at Tanum in South Sweden introduce us to sea raiders and settlers who were familiar with the leopard, the camel, the ostrich, and the turtle, as pointed out by Du Chaillu (“Viking Age” ii. p.124). Some are represented of immense size, many are prognathous with a suggestion, of the acromegalic chin some have unusually long legs and short bodies like Steinar, several are remarkably fat; often pictured fighting with vigour, they might well represent ancestors of Egil. Also the Fomorians, supernatural giants, who exactly parallel the Scandinavian Trolls in Irish tradition and played the part of vikings in their earliest history, were explained as “sea-raiders from Africa” by the medieval scholarship in Keating’s well-known “History of Ireland”. As a hypothesis, the tall and fair Scandinavian, or even taller red Caledonian, raiding up and down the Atlantic coasts in very early days, might conceivably contact with the tall negroids of Jaloff, and thus acquire with captured women the seeds of a black-haired stock unbalanced in many ways and marked by excessive height, such, as that producing Egil Skallagrimson.”

    In fact, I’ve learned that there were varieties of Viking Africans living in Scandinavia during the middle ages and was even frequently mentioned in Viking sagas. There were even Black Huns. The dictionary describes the Huns as “a fierce barbaric race of Asiatic nomads who, led by Attila, ravaged Europe in the 4th and 5th centuries A.D.” Gothic writer Jordannes described Attila as having “a flat nose and swarthy complexion.” He describes the types of Huns he had seen as “of dark complexion, almost black … broad shoulders, flat noses and small eyras.”

    I think what’s important in all this is that the global community is slowly accepting the fact that most of our world cultures come from African culture and much of it is based upon evidence, science, and recorded statements to support that things did in fact occur. However, it will take time. That is all I have to say. Cheers.

  • Johan

    Reply to green_tea:

    I have read the messages in this board and I must say that “Moor” has, by far, brought out the most striking and convincing argument with numerous information that even I have known myself, and I am a well educated white, European, man, who has lived in Italy for 6 years and France for 4 years. But this is simply my humble opinion.

    You can make any claim you like. One of the people who has posted here even calls himself “Moor”.

    “Moor” is an Afrocentrist. He is not a disinterested neutral observer seeking the truth.

    What he wrote about the Ireland being part of the Moorish Empire, should tell you something about his qualifications

    I found it shocking how Belle totally missed Moor’s argument about Beethoven’s hair and your claim of it being straight. From what I read, Moor did not switch from his original statements. He did not say that Beethoven’s hair was straight. Instead, I think he tried to show you that White people are not the only race of people who have straight hair, and he did so by pointing out that Black people have straight here as well, which I know to be a fact as well. His information was an effort to challenge your current perception of the kinds of people who have straight hair.

    I think that ignoring the many paintings and sketches of Beethoven, and the image of his hair, is a better example of “shocking”.

    There are three questions that are worth asking, when someone makes claims:

    1) What familiarity do you have with the subject?
    2) How do you know that what you say is true?
    3) Why should anyone believe you?

    So, are you prepared to answer these?

  • Johan

    Instead, I think he tried to show you that White people are not the only race of people who have straight hair, and he did so by pointing out that Black people have straight here as well, which I know to be a fact as well.

    That is incorrect. Black people do not have straight hair.

  • Johan

    I have read the messages in this board and I must say that “Moor” has, by far, brought out the most striking and convincing argument with numerous information that even I have known myself….etc..etc…

    (click on highlighted words)

    1) The Afrocentrists use altered images of Beethoven.

    Here is the original image, and its engraving.

    2) They ignore the best evidence of what Beethoven looked like: the life mask, the death mask, and the many paintings and drawings of the live Beethoven, as well as his locks of hair.

    3) They (unsurprisingly) try to prove that Beethoven was black “by any means necessary”.

    – When the claim that Beethoven was of Moorish background) seems shaky, they bring up some isolated cases of black servants in Royal households, and try to make a connection to Beethoven.

    This is called “grasping at straws”.

    – Initially, they actually were trying to use Beethoven’s hair (a hearsay description of his hair as “nappy”, see the Elmer Wells paper) as evidence. When it turns out to be straight, they say that this is not significant.

    How convenient.

    4) They keep bringing up Afrocentrist claims (e.g. the blacks invented the refrigerator, the Vikings were black, etc.) that have nothing to do with Beethoven.

    i.e. They can’t just forget their own belief system, and concentrate on the subject.

    Beethoven is not their interest.

    Is that “convincing“?

  • belle

    Nice try Moor, or should I say Mr. Green Tea:

    The Huns were comprised of Scythians interrelating with Sumerian tribes. Their skin colour was from white to yellow. In other words, they were of Hungarian descent and Asian.

    Attila was not black, and we know this from artifacts.

    Carry on Moor. I’m having a good laugh.

    I realize that all races can have straight or curly hair, but the issue is Mr. Moor that you said that Beethoven “had frizzy hair”. Why would you make that comment, not having seen the lock of hair. You weren’t suggesting that his hair might be straight, oh no, it was definitely frizzy/nappy in your mind’s eye.

    Have a good day. Oh, by the way which University did you attend in Italy or France?

    Belle

  • Johan

    Black people do not have straight hair.

    I’m sure that as adults, we all get a really good laugh out of these fanciful claims.

    Less funny is the fact that the Afrocentrists are pushing their agenda in America’s schools, and have political power.

    Looking at “Moor”‘s (aka green_tea) antics, you can see how the Afrocentrist movement has gained power in America: through brazeness, intimidation, appealing to emotions, trying to socialize you into not disagreeing with them, and dishonesty…

    While we are laughing, a whole generation of American children are having their minds ruined, and are becoming disciples of this movement.

  • belle

    Moor/Green Tea:

    I had little time to make further comment the other day regarding your references.

    It is obvious that you are obtaining your information from some very controversial sites. When reading your posting, I realized how familiar it sounds. There are some African Americans who are making unbelievable assumptions, and twisting facts to suit themselves. Please be very careful. We should appreciate one another’s history/heritage, and not tear it down. Don’t replace facts with myths.

    You should relize that this group makes pathetic statements, ie. that people with red curly hair in Northern Europe are from African descent. This is ridiculous.

    Being a scholar of History, I am so stunned to think that there are actually individuals in the world who have the audacity to challenge what has been written in stone for their own self righteous egos.

    Historians, archeologists and the list goes on, spend their entire lifetimes researching artifacts, papers over and over. They travel to these lands, and it is arduous work. Then some little group claims that this incredible amount of labour is all in err.

    Before stepping into a discussion, you should research for yourself. This discussion began with Beethoven, and escalated into racial tension.

    I respect and admire Africa’s history. It has an amazing history.

    You can’t claim to know that Africans existed in Europe during the Celtic period. It was absolutely impossible that they roamed Northern Europe. All Celtic tribes vanished. There are no living ancestors of the Celts today.

    Furthermore, there were no blacks amongst the Vikings. As I’ve said time and time again, a Black or Dark person, would simply have dark hair, but a fair complexion amongst the majority of Scandanavians who were blond.

    Attila the Hun was not of African descent. Please read the writings of Jordannes, rather than take an incorrect translation from someone else.

    I don’t mean any disrespect, but I can not tolerate history being ravaged. If I were to pull out the immense weight of documentation and research on European history, I believe that your claims would sit idle.

    Regards, Belle

  • nabb

    Well done Moor! Although I think everyone made good points, the statements made by Moor and the quotations he provided are solid. I’ve also studied world history and I can vouch for many of the quotations Moor provided in his statements because I’ve read them in text books and publications. I thought the thoughts of Bono from U2 were amazing. Some of the statements made by others people in this discussion don’t give any relevant contributions. I agree that the pictures provided by others don’t come from the time periods discussed. I would also like to say that none of the photographs, from anyone, looks like he is Black or White. It could go in any direction in my view. We should look to what people said about Beethoven when they described him. I also want to say that I think you guys need to let new people tell their views instead of ganging on people. That’s childish. And many of you are taking things personally. If you don’t agree that’s fine. Everyone has the rights to their own views. It’s like the Bible. Don’t go on and on about how you don’t like this and don’t like that. Don’t you guys have anything better to do? But before I go, I want say that from the Philippines and I don’t think that just because a statement is made that supports Black history, that it should look at as wrong. Afrocentric thought is beautiful and is not an ugly word as one of you try to make it seem. I thigh Johan is a racist! It is because of Afrocentricity that many of the civil rights we enjoy today exist. Most of history has always been presented with a White spin. And people are sick an tired of how white people don’t show the true history of things. We always see a white person even though white people have a very short history. How can this make sense. Most of the world is non-white so I hope the white brainwashing will end some day. All we want is the truth. To truth.

  • belle

    Dear Nabb/Moor/Green Tea, or whatever you call yourself:

    I never once said that being of African descent was ugly. I probably know more about African history than you ever will.

    I was just giving the true facts. I have studied Beethoven for about 30 years now, and how can you tell someone that their intense life study is nothing but a lie. Where do you get your facts about Beethoven? That’s why I asked if you had been to Wien.

    You need to cool down, and appreciate Ludwig von Beethoven for his beautiful music, not his skin colour. Do you still like Beethoven, even though he was white? I kind of think that you don’t.

    Regards, Belle

  • Johan

    Well done Moor! Although I think everyone made good points, the statements made by Moor and the quotations he provided are solid.

    That’s why he needs to generate his own applause, eh?

    I’ve also studied world history and I can vouch for many of the quotations Moor provided in his statements because I’ve read them in text books and publications.

    I’ve also read about UFO’s and the Bermuda triangle in publications. There are people who vouch for them, too.

    I thought the thoughts of Bono from U2 were amazing. Some of the statements made by others people in this discussion don’t give any relevant contributions.

    I agree about people in this discussion not making relevant contributions (for example, yourself – Once again, you can’t stick to the subject of Beethoven).

    I agree that the pictures provided by others don’t come from the time periods discussed. I would also like to say that none of the photographs, from anyone, looks like he is Black or White.

    Which pictures? How did you draw your conclusions? Not clear.

    It could go in any direction in my view. We should look to what people said about Beethoven when they described him. I also want to say that I think you guys need to let new people tell their views instead of ganging on people.

    That’s childish. And many of you are taking things personally. If you don’t agree that’s fine. Everyone has the rights to their own views.

    Afrocentrism is a mass movement. The people disagreeing with it are individuals.

    It’s like the Bible. Don’t go on and on about how you don’t like this and don’t like that.

    Yes, Afrocentrism is like a religion. Hence its intolerance for non-believers.

    Don’t you guys have anything better to do? But before I go, I want say that from the Philippines and I don’t think that just because a statement is made that supports Black history, that it should look at as wrong. Afrocentric thought is beautiful and is not an ugly word as one of you try to make it seem.

    Don’t you have anything better to do than defending rubbish?
    The idea that Beethoven was black is not beautiful; it is ridiculous.

    I thigh Johan is a racist!

    You can stop that; it won’t work.

    It is because of Afrocentricity that many of the civil rights we enjoy today exist. Most of history has always been presented with a White spin.

    Nobody owes anything to lies and false beliefs.

    If anything they have always been enemies of progress.

    It is because of Western civilization that we enjoy the benefits of science and the scientific method.

    For my part, I acknowledge these benefits, and the effectiveness of the scientific method for discovering the truth.

    And people are sick an tired of how white people don’t show the true history of things. We always see a white person even though white people have a very short history. How can this make sense. Most of the world is non-white so I hope the white brainwashing will end some day. All we want is the truth. To truth.

    Hey, no one is here to entertain you.

    History, Archeology and Science professionals shouldn’t have to answer to insults and accusations from ignorant rabble. It is up to you to learn to learn to respect the accumulated knowledge that is supposed to be passed on to your generation.

  • Ose

    “Until the lions have their historians,tales of the hunted will always glorify the hunter”

    It is amazing that in 2005, people are still attempting to change the way “White” people interpret their history. You , Afrocentrists, historical revisionists and the like , will never change the mind of those committed to the white supremacy mindset. It is not important for White people to believe that Moors, Egyptians, Sumerians, Olmecs or any other historical people were Black or not, It important for so called Black people to believe it.

    It is a verifiable fact that Black peoples history was washed away with the justifications presented for the Black man’s predilection for slavery. There are sculptures and paintings done of moors that attested to their ethnicity (see Dr.Ivan van Sertima’s “Golden age of the Moor” for example) so trying to prove something that was obvious with dubious “science” will come down to how one interprets the results. In 1974, the Senegales scolar Dr. C.A. Diop created a melanin dosage test to prove the ancient egyptian were Black. So science certainly can be construed any way the person at the controls what it to be proved.

    All I am saying is, The Black people were once great but we have to get our own selves to gether and not look for other peoples approval.

  • belle

    What?

    “Hunter” “White People” “White Supremecy Mindset”

    Are you angry? I would say that you definitely are. It’s a real shame. The topic was about Beethoven, and always this ugliness comes out. I wonder if you are still “Moor”. The vindictive attitude that shows might say that you are still that same person.

    If you want a challenge I can give you that. I spoke up about Beethoven, because I have been studying him for the last 30 years. Otherwise, I would not have been involved in such trash.

    My opinion, and the opinion of many of my collegues would reflect that Dr. Diop is very controversial within the fields of Science and History. How many years did he truly make his studies? Did he allow others to review his findings? Meaning, those of a different race.

    You must be careful in assuming that we would take our ideas from White Supremecy. Surely, we are entitled to some respect.

    Enjoy the world for what it is. It would truly seem that you are fighting with yourself.

    Respectfully,
    Belle

  • Ose

    Why does Dr.Diop’s findings have to be verified by someone of a different race?

    Would that make them legitimate?
    What is that saying about you?

    I gues that if a “white” person O.K.’s his findings I suppose it’s legitimate.

    Again, score one for white supremacy.

    (Oh, by the way, Dr. Diop’s findings were diseminated at the meeting of classical civilizations, held in egypt in 1974. All the great scholars were present, and none of them could counter his view. Dr. Diop was along with being a egyptologist was also a scientist who created the first radiocarbon laboratory in Africa. He studied under Marie Curie and also was a linguist. I guess that makes him legitimate
    Huh?.)

  • belle

    What?

    Diop was born in 1923, Marie Curie passed away in 1934. How interesting? You say that he studied under her.

    How do you know that I am white?

    When I mentioned that other races did not observe his findings, I was referring to all other races. Where do you conclude that this reference refers to “white people”. Why would he not want others to look at his findings? Any great scholar encourages this, as they are very confident with their findings.

    Respectfully,
    Belle

  • Ose

    Please Accept my apologies.

    Dr.Diop studied at the Sorbonne in Paris in the lab that made Marie Curie famous and not under her as I previously stated.

    However, being an adherent to a “white supremacy mindset” does not necessarily mean you have to be “white”. White Supremacy is a cultural tool which seeks to divide marginalise and control non white people for it’s own benefit. It is the prevailing notion in the world today. It is the reason that 11% of the population(commonly known as white people) can control the remaining 89% of people.

    At the UNESCO conference in 1974, There were other scholars there. His findings were posted and widely commented upon. You see, the problem you and others of your ilk have with changing your views is you are comfortable at using history to support your own supremacy. Your are fine when you look at your scientists and scholars as a way of justifying your dominace in other arenas (such as the power and strength of your nations, and the resultant technology) but reluctant to see the wicked hand you played in world history. You cannot deny Europe attained her dominance through sheer manipulation, enslavement, trickery and mass murder.

    Need I recount the crimes of the people know as “White?”

    Or the diseases and the suffering?

    And why should we believe what you or anyone says about the history of anyone?

    I am sorry, “white” peoples track record is pretty poor.

    Respectfully,
    Ose

  • belle

    I think you have to stop being vindictive. The world is made up of many many different races, and cultures. You have to appreciate all of it, and not discriminate.

    It’s spiteful to rip apart history as it pertains to others. I have my opinions, and you have yours, but it’s not right to throw out discriminating names regarding others.

    Give some respect to scientists, scholars, archeologists, and the list goes on. We are a colaborative group of individuals with specific skills and interest. Whether we be white, black, asian, aboriginal, it doesn’t seem to matter with us. We live and breathe through our careers. WE DON’T DISCRIMATE OR DOMINATE.

    Dr. Diop and his group discriminated against all other races. That is why he was and is so controversial within our field of studies. In today’s world you can’t be ethnocentric. We have to learn to appreciate the differences. When you keep slapping on White Supremecy, it raises the flip side of Black Supremecy. Anger provokes anger.

    Africa has a great and amazing history and culture. Why demean it, by denouncing other cultures of their own makings?

    Nijel Binn (in marital arts), whom I believe followed Dr. Diop denounced the martial arts as being of Asian origin. He claimed that all martials arts stemmed from Africa 2800 BC. That is totally unbelievable, and an insult to Asia.

    You say that diseases, suffering and generally everything evil in the world is from the “White” populace. I think you need to look around the world, and get a better understanding. That statement of yours is so full of hate.

    You act no differently than a White Supremist, towards a Black, only it’s on the flip side.

    Respectfully,
    Belle

  • Ose

    Excuse me I almost fell out my chair.

    I’m ethnocentric?!?!?!!!

    Could you firstly, explain to me how did Dr. Diop discriminate against other races?I can certainly show where Arthur Schlesinger, Gaston Maspero, E. Wallis Budge and others certainly have.

    Speaking of “RACE” do you know who originated the concept? Yep, that’s right… so called “White people”. Joseph Gobineau the ethnologist, scholar and virilent racist separated mankind into 5 races. Now why would I agree that the world is so full of different “races”? Is this not a divide and conquer stratagem?

    “White people” are anyone who subscribes to the “race” ideology. There are only two real races in this world, “White” and “Non white” people. So-called black people can and are “white” too. This is really their problem, they what to be accepted by “massa” so much they end up losing their minds.But that’s another story.

    And why would’nt the “idea” of black people in Africa (again your name for the continent)created Martial Arts? It is obvious by your knee jerk response that YOU are hostile to the “idea” that black people can create something that can be used the world over. I mean isn’t it true that we all came from Africa anyway? Would it be that much of a stretch that all forms of civilization came from there also?

    You prove your ignorance by belaboring biased assumptions about race. You really need to take the red pill.

    By the way, I don’t judge people by the color of their skin but by the content of their argument.

    Peace out,
    Ose

  • belle

    What do you know about Gobineau? His greatest concern was Nazi ideology. He did not attack “white people”, but Nazi supremecy.

    Quit, saying “white people” with such hate. I’m of mixed race, and you literally tick me off. The fact is that Africa is not the creator of Asia, Greece, etc. Africa created itself, and it is a wonderful history. Quit pulling punches at other people.

    You do judge by colour! Especially when you say “white people”. Get it together.

    Belle

  • Johan

    It is amazing that in 2005, people are still attempting to change the way “White” people interpret their history.

    It is amazing that in the middle of a discussion about Beethoven, Afrocentrists still try to change the subject.

    You , Afrocentrists, historical revisionists and the like , will never change the mind of those committed to the white supremacy mindset. It is not important for White people to believe that Moors, Egyptians, Sumerians, Olmecs or any other historical people were Black or not, It important for so called Black people to believe it.
    It is a verifiable fact that Black peoples history was washed away with the justifications presented for the Black man’s predilection for slavery.

    The Afrocentrists have already made fools of themselves over Beethoven. Accusations and changing the subject won’t fix that.

    There are sculptures and paintings done of moors that attested to their ethnicity (see Dr.Ivan van Sertima’s “Golden age of the Moor” for example) so trying to prove something that was obvious with dubious “science” will come down to how one interprets the results.

    No. That is incorrect. Paintings (click here) show that the Moors were not black.

    Name-calling won’t prove anything.

    In 1974, the Senegales scolar Dr. C.A. Diop created a melanin dosage test to prove the ancient egyptian were Black.

    Does this (click here) look like a black person, to you?

    So science certainly can be construed any way the person at the controls what it to be proved.

    All I am saying is, The Black people were once great but we have to get our own selves to gether and not look for other peoples approval.

    Science relies on free inquiry, direct observation, reasoning and doubt.

    So it cannot be controlled.

    That is why Afrocentrists have a problem with it.

  • Ose

    Sieg Heil!!

    I knew Herr Johan would enter the debate sooner or later.

    The guy who stated that “Black people don’t have straight hair!?!?”(smile)

    Look, showing me a reconstruction of Rameses wouldn’t describe his skin colour , now would it Jo? As for the Moorish pictures you purport to have, for every “bleached out ” white picture you have, I can show you ten original paintings, sculptures and the like all dated from that period and not recent constructs like the ones you have. Where do you think the term “Blackamoor” comes from?. Have you at least looked at the book I mentioned? You are like a child who wants everyone to see what you have and not what anyone else has. In the video narrarated by Charleton Heston (probably your idol) entitled “The age of the Sphinx”, a fornesic artist does a drawing of what the Sphinx would look like and suprisingly (to you perhaps)she looks like a Black woman!! Get the video and enlighten yourself.

    And Belle,
    Well…

    Your “mixed” race huh?
    It’s funny, mixed race people always tend to play up that when they’re are black mixed with something else. You are only “mixed” when “white” people say your “mixed”.

    I mentioned Gobineau as the father of the “race” concept. Certainly not to support black people.

    I welcome your weak attempts to disprove the obvious truth.
    Peace and hair grease,
    Ose
    (p.s. Belle ,Shhhhhh!!!I am also mixed!!Most black people are(read William Loren Katz”Black Indians”))

  • Ose

    Oh yeah,

    Muslims don’t depict images of themselves. It is “Haram”(prohibited) draw or paint images of the human body.

    Hmmm… I wonder who drew those pics??

    There were Arabs,tawny and “white” Moors who were united by Islam–not strictly by skin colour.

    I’m out
    Ose

  • belle

    Dear Ose (Moore, Green Tea, Nabb):

    It’s obvious to me that you are an ardent follower of Min. Louis Farrakhan. Are you a devout “American”Muslim? It would seem so when I look at the individuals who you attack.

    I don’t feel that you have the background to argue like you do. I get the feeling that your criticisms of Schlesinger, Maspero, and Budge are from what you’ve read from Farrakhan followers, and not what you’ve observed on your own. Do you know anything about these individuals?

    Maspero was the one who set out to save the temples of Nubia after the building of Aswan Dam. Why would you hate him? Is it because he was white, and involved with the preservation of Egypt’s treasures? As I said before, those preserving the past don’t look at race, creed, ethic background. Our passion is to preserve and teach, and not with a ethnocentric attitude.

    Farrakhan is against Whites, Jews, Christians and the list goes on. He is for the Nation of Islam only. He is not for the Christians of ALKEBU-LAN.

    He is as scary as Hitler was.

    I’m not arguing with you about the Black history in Africa. I get put off when you discredit the vast amount of historical and scientific research that has been proven time and time again.

    Of course there is black history in Egypt. That’s obvious isn’t it?

    Time out!

    Respectfully,
    Belle

  • Ose

    Come on Belle,

    Don’t get mad…I am not a follower of Minister Louis Farrakhan. I am a follower of the truth. I got into “Black” history a year after high school due to a “liberal” proffessor at a nearby college. I was always intersted in history , so it was a shock to me that when he revealed a “different” version of history. One which not only included black people in it but put them foremost in history. Maspero, along with other Egyptologists, argued against the “Black” Egyptian idea by basically stating that Blacks were not smart enough to create such an impressive civilization.

    Why are you attempting to label me a “Black” supremacist?

    Salaam ar barakhat,
    Ose

  • belle

    Okay Ose,

    Glad to see that you’re not a follower of Farrakhan. And I’m glad to see that you’re interested in history.

    History enriches many lives, and we learn not to repeat atrocities of the past. Unfortunately, they haven’t been enriched with history in the 3rd world nations, and the fighting carries on.

    We have to keep history in perspective. The world is made up of different peoples with a different history. And there is no doubt that Black history is entwined with Egypt.

    Now back to work,

    Respectfully,
    Belle

  • Ose

    Hey,
    I totally forgot that this posting was about Beethoven’s ethnicity?!?

    Hey Belle or anyone interested, check out a book called “Anacalypsis” by Sir Godfrey Higgins. It was written in 1831 and it details a lot of interesting things about history. It’s cool because the copywright is expired so you can download it from the web.

    Out,
    Ose

  • belle

    I appreciate your interest in the book “Anacalypsis”. I have read this and many other works written around that era, and I really don’t want to get into heavy discussions. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to say something.

    Sir Higgins was considered a mythologist, so you can’t take his research as factual. He wrote this information at a time when science wasn’t in the forefront of society. He wanted to rewrite the history or Christianity. In my mind, I don’t believe that Christ’s life has ever been portrayed correctly. No one is capable of knowing the truth. It is very likely that his skin was dark. But was he of African descent?

    The writings were from many different people, at different points in time. They all had various beliefs, and didn’ live at the time of Christ. What if I were to hypothesis like Sir Higgins, and refute that Christ was not a man, but that Christ was acutally a woman?

    There was great controversy over a painting which depicted the Last Supper. The top layer of paint was washed off, revealing Christ and the prophets as women. Why was this hidden from society? Have you heard of this?

    As a woman, there are more obstacles to overcome. If it were to be proven that Christ was a woman, do you think that the world (which is a man’s world) would accept this?

    As scholars, not one of us can be sure of who Christ was. We have a lot of different theories, and interpretations. It’s like looking for the needle in the hay stack. The variations of thoughts are neverending.

    Respectfully,
    Belle

  • Johan

    Sieg Heil!!

    That won’t do you any good, so stop it.

    The guy who stated that “Black people don’t have straight hair!?!?”

    That is correct. Black people don’t have straight hair.

    Look, showing me a reconstruction of Rameses wouldn’t describe his skin colour , now would it Jo?

    Why don’t you ask the scientists who made the re-construction?

    (click here).

    … unless learning is not your goal.

    Muslims don’t depict images of themselves. It is “Haram”(prohibited) draw or paint images of the human body.

    Hmmm… I wonder who drew those pics??

    That is incorrect.

    There are plenty of examples of old Islamic miniatures.

    Click here
    …here

    …here…

    Or here

    “Pandj Gandj”, Amir Khosroe Dehlavi, Tabriz School, 16th Century

    Salaam ar barakhat

    Phony Arabic won’t do you any good, either.

  • Ose

    Herr Uber mensch Johan,

    I guess I have to go to you to find out if my father was indeed black. I have kinky hair, my son has wavy hair and a black friend of mine has straight hair.

    Do you realize how stupid your comment on hair is ? Probably not.

    Do you even know that as black people age, some of them, there hair changes as well as their eyes (some of them even become bluish)? Of course not, because your ignorant.

    Besides, where’s your fuzzy science to support this claim?

    As for Islamic minatures, It is haram to produce images of the human body. Ask any Sunni (The majority of Muslms)muslim that.It is even prohibited to have pictures in the home, much less for sale. Many Turks and Persians have produced images that are reflective of themselves. Do you know that they’re more Muslims in the world that are non Arab? In fact, there are more muslims in Indonesia alone than there are Arabs on Earth? Every culture presents sacred images clothed in their own cultural milieu, so that proves nothing.

    There were many different peoples in Egypt at that time. Even if that mummy was a “White” person , how can you be sure it was Rameses? The Greek kings of Egypt, the Ptolomes were also mummified. There was no question they were “white”. I’ll even go on to say that Rameses could have been “white”(although I personnally don’t believe it to be the case) they didn’t have the racial hang-ups you and your people have.Why not look at the obviously Black pharoahs, Mentuhoptep, Akenaton, Thutmosis and Taharka. Why not mention the afro wearing Queen Tiye?

    Look Nazi, You will never change my mind about this subject but keep trying if you want . I’ll just keep refuting you.And by the way, do you speak Arabic? I do. So what’s so phony about that?

    Belle, There’s another book that might be of interest to you it’s called “The Historical Jesus and the Mythological Christ” by Gerald Massey. His contention is Jesus actually was a amalgam of deities the world over. He was the personification of the “Sun”. His disciples were the twelve signs of the zodiac. There is a more recent book called “The Greatest Lie ever sold” by Acharya S.

    As salaam alaikum wa ramatullahi wa barakhatu,
    (translation for Johan, “Peace be unto you and the blessings of Allah”)
    Ose

  • belle

    The books you listed are very interesting. They are books based on philosophy and mythical ideas.

    My forte is not in the field of religion and/or philosphy. To me it is far too political, and has far too many variants. I’ve found in the past that discussions turn into long drawn out arguments, with each participant being adament. We all have pretty solid beliefs as individuals, not wanting to have our ear bent.

    However, it is important to keep an open mind and look at all sides of this many sided coin. I know that my tendancy is to bypass the philisophical side of religion, and study it from the historical/scientific side. And this is so.

    Respectfully,
    Belle

  • Ose

    Belle,

    I’ve long since given up the notion of a physical “Christ” after studying some of those works I’ve mentioned. The history of militant Christianity has pretty much sullied the notion of a forgiving, doting father and his sacrificial son saving mankind for the likes of Sir John Hawkins and Christoper Columbus. The Catholic Church sanctioned assasinations, exterminations, forced suicides, hypocracies and even Hitler! Even in my home town, growing up Baptist, my minister tolerated homosexual members of the assemblage. Some of his votaries were not only gay but obscenely extravagant. This was a major turn of for me.

    Another subject that I find interesting is the effect of Christianity on men, particularily black men. It seem to “effeminize” them and I would truly like to understand why. At every church I attended, there was always a gay man there— sometimes in leadership. Don’t get me wrong, I am not a gaybasher but it is incompatible to be a Christian and be a homosexual at the same time isn’t it?

    I think the idea of a female Christ is a good one. But if you think about it, the virgin Mary and her various incarnations throughout the world are pretty much seen as just as important if not even more important than Jesus.

    Oh Yeah, did you read “The Davinci Code”? It’s fiction but it catalyzes thought.

    Peace out,
    Ose

  • belle

    Hye Ose,

    I truly believe in the physical Christ, but as to the identity it’s a question that’s so wide open. I don’t think mankind will ever know for sure.

    Militant Christianity? Yes. Further, every religion is militant from one end to the other. Not one is exempt from discrimination, sexism and bloodshed. There is no personal freedom within any religion. I reiterate, that the aforesaid is my opinion.

    I don’t believe in discrimination, and according to the written word, all people are equal, whatever their race, creed, sex, and religious beliefs. There is no such thing as a good person being imcompatible with Christianity. This I believe should only apply to an individual who intentionally takes the life of another.

    The truth be known, War is incompatible with Religion, yet it’s a constant around the world. War and famine are obscene, not a human’s chosen life style.

    In my opinion the Virgin Mary is ridiculous. I believe that she was pregnant out of wedlock, and to save his/her mother disgrace from society , perhaps Jesus or his followers were compelled to say that he was the result of an immaculate conception. Just remember how Jesus would have been reproached. To start off, Jesus was an outcast, and with society having knowledge of his mother, this added fuel to fire would reach far beyond the barrier of discrimination.

    That’s my opinion.

    Respectfully,
    Belle

  • Johan

    Herr Uber mensch Johan,

    Shut up.

    a black friend of mine has straight hair.

    I don’t believe you.

    As for Islamic minatures, It is haram to produce images of the human body

    It is haram to lie.

    Ask any Sunni…

    The Turks – who made plenty of miniatures (click here) – are Sunni.

    …You will never change my mind about this subject but keep trying if you want .I’ll just keep refuting you.

    That scarcely matters. Reality doesn’t care what you think.

    And by the way, do you speak Arabic? I do. So what’s so phony about that?

    Your sentence:

    Salaam ar barakhat

    was phony. And you don’t speak Arabic.

  • Ose

    Herr Voll!!

    Johan, Johan, Johan…… Am I striking a nerve with you? I mean with you and you “Nazi-like” reasoning? Is that why you don’t like it when I refer to you in terms you should be familiar with? How can you have the audacity to tell me who I do or do not have as friends? If you had any brains at all, you would have read what I posted about race. Again, where is your “scientific” explanation for race in regards to black people?…. Well?….. I guess you don’t have any do you?

    For the second time, I will tell you that Turks and Persians made images of themselves and disseminated them. If the muslims of Senegal or Indonesia would make images of the Prophet (pbuh) what “race” do you would think he would be?

    And by the way “Salaam ar Barakhat” isn’t a sentence. You can transliterate Arabic anyway you want as long as you get the idea. Some letters (like Ayn and Ghayn) cannot be translated into English.

    So the only thing “phony” is your reasoning.

    Auf vedersain!!Herr Johan,
    Ose

  • Johan

    And by the way “Salaam ar Barakhat” isn’t a sentence. You can transliterate Arabic anyway you want as long as you get the idea. Some letters (like Ayn and Ghayn) cannot be translated into English.

    Trying to weasel your way out of it?

    And by the way “Salaam ar Barakhat” isn’t a sentence. You can transliterate Arabic anyway you want as long as you get the idea. Some letters (like Ayn and Ghayn) cannot be translated into English.

    Stop lying. Why do you lie so much?

    Arabic can – and is – easily transliterated. And transliteration has NOTHING to do with your fake Arabic.

  • Johan

    Speaking of “RACE” do you know who originated the concept? Yep, that’s right… so called “White people”. Joseph Gobineau the ethnologist, scholar and virilent racist separated mankind into 5 races. Now why would I agree that the world is so full of different “races”? Is this not a divide and conquer stratagem?

    That is incorrect.

    The earliest recorded racist policy existed in Ancient Egypt:

    “The Twelfth Dynasty Pharaoh Sesostris III (c. 1887- 1849 BC) regarded blacks as inferior to Egyptians, and erected a stele at the southern boundary of Lower Egypt which still reads: “No negro shall cross this boundary by water or by land, by ship or with his flocks, save for the purpose of trade or to make purchases in some post.””

    Click here for more details.

  • sylvie

    it’s funny (not Ha, ha, funny) how white americans hate to face facts when it come to a person of greatness being of the black race. when the truth of the matter is it was the black race that laid the ground work for this country. if it truly don’t matter if Beethovan was black then since you all have had him white for all these years then we will have him black for the remainder of years. you people have for decades been in denial abaut many truths about the greatness of black in this country and that is why you all have done everything in your power to feed us you all beliefs from Beethovan to Jesus. you all took micheal angelo (white) jesus and presented him to the world and Jesus of the bible and if you read your bible you will see that Jesus was not this pretty boy with smooth skin blond hair and blue eyes.

  • Belle

    Sylvie,

    Where did you come from?????? You stir the pot once again. I’d say that you’re just a “little” bit of a racist.

    Don’t bring up the subject of Ludwig van Beethoven (please ensure to spell the name correctly when you think that you have a comment). I am a Beethoven scholar for the past 30 years, and I don’t need your racist digs.

    How do you know Beethoven? Have you been to Wien? You do realize that there are descendents of the Beethoven family. I can assure you that the Beethoven’s are of Flemish and German heritage. History is based on years and years of study by scholars like myself, scientists, and the list goes on. Don’t tread into territories which you are not familiar with.

    I originally responded to this site, after a friend had stumbled upon it. My dedication is Beethoven, so please be respectful.

    Respectfully,

    Belle

  • Inga

    Sylvie,

    Wir sind nicht nur Deutsch, sondern auch intelligent sein. DANKBAR NICHT AMERICANER!!!!!!

    Inga

  • belle

    Oh Sylvie,

    The name is Michelangelo Di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni. To the world we know his name as Michelangelo Buonarroti – NOT micheal angelo.

    Get your facts straight before jumping in with both feet. I suppose that is why you feel that you laid the ground work. Oh my!!!

  • William

    Human races have to be split, thats what makes us…”unique” there are many differant species of fly, dogs, horses, etc, etc. How can splitting humans into differant groups make someone racist? Humans are not all equal, we are not all the same. How can we be the same when you can tell the differance between two peoples race by looking at them? Would a dog be equal if it could speak human? I think not, the equality and race cards have been overplayed, its time for a new hand. This discussion started over Beethoven being supposedly black, mixed, of african descent, whatever, Now Michelangelo is coming into it? Egyptians? The first pharohs of Egypt were white, Just because the Egyptian empire rose in Africa, does not mean it was Blacks who created it. If your going to pull up history for argument, look at what Whites have given the World. I once read an argument on the internet, And the only credit that was given to the black race in this argument by a black “Historian” who was black also was, A super soaker, and traffic lights, which later on was proven that traffic lights was invented by a white person. I read someone speaking of Europeans roaming the hills of Europe, Africa had great civilsations, like Egypt. Ive already said my piece on Egypt, Now look at Europe now. Africa is the worst place on Earth. Its a void of nothing but pain, death and poverty. If Africa is such a great place, Why do so many immigrints from there swarm to Europe and North America, which are white continents. If the black race is of brilliance, why is Africa nothing today? The continent lives of other countries, Its just one giant parasite. If you love your fantastic nation so much and its of such great importance to the world, simply, go back there. And stay there.

  • Inga

    Really? I can’t believe how anyone could believe that there were African Vikings, and African Celts, and apparently you would think that the whole of European civilization is African!!!!!

    If there were Africans, then where did they go????

    Many of us reading this site, totally agree with William. If the Africans were so brilliant, what happened? You can’t blame it on slavery, because the Africans sold their own kind to Slave traders. They obviously weren’t brilliant enough to prevent this.

    Inga

  • jessica

    you people need to find a more productive way to waste your time- arguing over someone’s race is so pointless and wasteful. think of all the great things with the braincells ur using bickering with each other.

  • Denise

    I just wanted to put in my very small two cents. My mother and father are black but my grand mother was Indian and my grandfather was
    black and indian and I have very straight hair. No kinks, no frizz, no nothing. If I want body, I get a “white” perm in my hair. That was for anyone who did not believe that black people could have straight hair.

  • Inga

    No one needs your comments Jessica. Step out of the box. Go and find some more productive time.

    If the discussion had started about Martin Luther King being “white”, how much discussion do you think there would be?

    We’re not bickering, we are having a debate. So use your so called “brain cells” somewhere else. Check your spelling too (braincells?).

    From the Viking,
    Inga

  • Ferdinand

    It is absolutely incredible how much gross stupidity is on display here. For crying out loud, Beethoven was a German, regardless of his skin tone. Olive skin is present among Germans—Southern Europeans don’t have a monopoly on that shade (just as Northern Europeans do not have a monopoly on pale skin and light coloured eyes.). Moors in Italy someone said? Yes, they arrived shortly after the Klingons.

    One thing is clear: Ludvig van Beethoven was NOT NEGROID. PERIOD!

  • Inga

    Thank you Ferdinand,

    Absolutely, the Moors did arrive after the Klingons. This site is the remaking of history. Perhaps Beethoven was a Klingon. Oh, we might get a lot of arguing from those soooooo certain that he was of African descent.

    Maybe we’re all descended from Klingons. Oh, I feel another argument coming just around the corner, because I totally forgot that we are all African.

    Inga

  • jessica

    actually i am black and i still think its a stupid discussion…im a columbia student i dont need the spelling correction- simple typo everyone makes them

  • Inga

    Jessica,

    That was my point. It was very obvious that you are black. Do I really care if you’re a Columbia student? What’s your point?

    I attend Frankfurt Univeristy. So what is your point?

    You’re smart because you go to university?

    If you feel that this is unproductive, why did you come back on.

    Do you think that as a European I should allow such lies to persist. The original discussion was about Beethoven. Who do African Americans think they are? Every person in this world has a history, and they are very proud of it. What gives African Americans the right to change European history?

    Inga

  • jessica

    Well, Inga,
    I obviously sound black? I don’t think what I said had any implications of my race. Besides, what is sounding “black” or “white”? Just because I am a certain color, I have to speak a certain way? Statements like that only prolong negative stereotypes. I am by no means the stereotype of how blacks are portrayed in society. What an ignorant comment.
    Yes, I do think I am extremely intelligent because I go to Columbia. I speak 4 languages and am a double major at one of America’s most prestigous universities. I don’t know how Frankfurt U, compares…
    I stumbled upon this discussion a couple days ago when I google “Beethoven being black”. I had actually never heard this theory before so I was really interested in learning about it. But as I read the comments, I was really disturbed by all of the racial undertones. I think its really sad that people are trying to claim him. He was a human, we all are. There is only one race. We all came from African “Zion” whether you want to admit it or not. Even you Europeans.
    As for your statement- who do african americans think they are? Another extremely ignorant statement. Blacks have contributed so much to society- i.e. street lights, peanut butter, music, literature, art, etc etc. No one is trying to claim or re write history. I have a great respect for all cultures. My boyfriend is Finnish, so I am by all means not a “militant” black who is trying to change the world. I have a wide range of knowledge for all cultures, even yours, you Viking. I wish society made more emphasis on the achievements and contributions of blacks, not the rubbish the media displays. , by all means, am not one to justify The past is the past, we can’t change it. We just need to move on and leave behind all of this racial silliness. Believe me, there is no conspiracy among all of us black people (because we all know each other and think the same thoughts) to override and change history.
    No one is trying to change history. Beethoven was German, by definition. Everyone here agrees with that. Who cares what color his skin was, does that make him less German, less of the stupid concept of a “master race”?

  • Johan

    Blacks have contributed so much to society- i.e. street lights, peanut butter, music, literature, art, etc.etc

    That is incorrect. The street light was not invented by blacks. (As for literature, Blacks apparently didn’t even come up with a written language.)

    No one is trying to claim or re write history.

    Errr…You have just given us an example.

    Who cares what color his skin was, does that make him less German, less of the stupid concept of a “master race”?

    Why don’t you ask the Afro-centrists, who started this discussion?

  • jessica

    I don’t understand how saying that implies that I am trying to change history…
    Why don’t I ask the afro centrists what? Seriously, does that make him less German if he had darker skin? Everyone can agree that he is German. No one is taking that away from him. Like I said I am hardly an “afro centrist” I just don’t understand why skin color matters, regardless of who started this discussion. I don’t understand this notion of someone typing a certain way that it obviously means they are black or white…

    as for the street light= you’re right my friend gave me wrong information. This is the inventor who I was thinking of…http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa020600g2.htm

    Ugh this discussion reminds me of the “Racial Draft” skit of Dave Chappelle’s show

    “One standout bit is a “racial draft” in which teams of Jews, African-Americans, Latinos, Asians and whites decide the racial standing of such multi-ethnic celebrities as Tiger Woods, Halle Berry and Mariah Carey.

    The blacks’ first-round draft pick is Woods.

    “He’s been discriminated against in his time, he’s had death threats and he dates white women,” observes Chappelle as one of the play-by-play announcers. “Sounds like a black man to me.”

    Skits about an alcoholic beverage named after actor Samuel L. Jackson (instead of Samuel Adams — get it?) and how everything looks cooler in slow-motion, including doing your laundry — hit the bull’s-eye.

    In an upcoming sketch that’s bound to cause a stir, Chappelle pokes fun at “Leave it to Beaver,” the classic family sitcom that aired in the late ’50s and early ’60s. Instead of having a white family whose last name is Cleaver, the white family’s last name sounds like a racial slur.

    Although the controversial skit could be viewed as perpetuating age-old stereotypes that blacks are lazy and don’t pay their bills on time, we know Chappelle is really saying it’s OK to laugh at ourselves and our perceived differences.”
    http://coxnews.com/cox/news/Entertainment/story/5178.

  • Erik

    Well, I am danish, I have just found this website today and I must say that I’m amazed by the things being written here! Relations between blacks and whites in Americs must really be bad for this to be an issue at all…

    I would just like to comment on one thing, that part about the “black vikings”. I actually know about one case of black people in Scandinavia during the age of the vikings. It is mentioned in a book that I once read, that some vikings made it all the way down to the westcoast of Morocco and took some slaves there during a raid. These slaves where sold on the market in Hedeby, a city in southern Denmark (now Germany). The where called “blue-men” because of their color, indicating that they were probably as black as people from sub-saharan Africa. To the best of my knowledge, there is only this one story about black people in Scandinavia during the viking-age. It must also have been quite rare for the vikings to make it all the way down to West Africa, even for a people who had advanced skills as a seafaring people it would have been an epic voyage.

    Now, what happened to these black slaves? How many were they? Was there only this one expedition to Africa or did it happen several times? And most importantly (in this context), did these black Africans have any descendents in Scandinavia?

    We don’t know the answers to these questions. One of the problems about a period like the viking age (800-1100AD) is that we only have very fragmented historical sources, like a few laconic words on runestones, chronichels written by foreign munks who didn’t understand the local culture, sagas written down centuries later based on memory and oral accounts, with all the potential inaccuracies that that can create, and so on.

    If these africans where sold as slaves, they could have ended up anywhere, the vikings traded with people all over Europe. An other possibility is that they were killed as an offering to the gods, the vikings practised human sacrifice. If that happened, well then obviously they had no descendants.

  • jessica

    erik- You’r right it’s a shame that race still matters so much… forty years after the civil rights movement. did we really move past the racism in the sixties? sometmes I wonder…

  • Johan

    I just don’t understand why skin color matters, regardless of who started this discussion. I don’t understand this notion of someone typing a certain way that it obviously means they are black or white…

    Blacks have contributed so much to society…etc….as for the street light= you’re right my friend gave me wrong information. This is the inventor who I was thinking of…http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa020600g2.htm

    On the one hand, you lecture others about someone’s race not being important.

    On the other, you are saying that some inventor or patent holder was black.

    Aren’t you contradicting yourself?

  • jessica

    No, Johan, I’m defending African Americans with Inga’s grossly ignorant comment of “Who do African Americans think they are?” I’m not lecturing anyone, simply stating my opinion, thats all. I thought that comment was totally demeaning and condescending, like blacks have contributed to everyone’s everyay lives. I repeat, I am NOT afro-centrist by any means. I think those opinions are extremely ignorant and poisoning as well. It makes me really uncomfortable, and I don’t know if you think this, but you seem to make an emphasis of grouping all African Americans in this radical afrocentrist point of view. Race isn’t important but since everyone stresses it so much don’t think its fair that black contributions are overlooked and undermined. Race doesnt influence any of the decisions I make about a person their intelligence, their talent, their character. But I feel like IF Beethoven was black (and IF is in caps because like I said earlier, I am not familiar with his history or the scientific proof behind it…) it totally changes the talent he possessed. I don’t know if you mean to imply that, its just the impression that I get.

    P.S Johan I have straight hair and I’m African American, want me to send you a picture for proof? My mother, my brother all have straight hair as well. And I am not mulatto. 100% B-L-A-C-K
    “Shut up.”
    “a black friend of mine has straight hair.”
    “I don’t believe you”

  • Erik

    Now I have had some more time to read the posts here and I have my own theory about why it’s still important for some people to discuss a certain individuals race, like Beethovens. It’s kind of funny actually, because I’m sure that most people here in this forum have never heard Beethovens music other than in soundbites, if they have heard any of his music at all. Yet there is this dogfight going on about who can ‘prove’ that he had some black blood in him or who can disprove it. He is a famous musician, that’s pretty much all people know about him.

    My guess is that this is really about pride, about finding out who has the ‘finest’ legacy, who has given the greatest contribution to the worlds cultural heritage. So many black people are almost desperately trying to find any link that they can possibly find between famous white people in history and ‘prove’ that they were ‘really’ black or at least had some black blood in them, whereas the white ‘defenders of the faith’ are doing their best to make sure that the white man remains on top of the piedestal. Not very serious, not very scientific.

    It think that this problem wouldn’t exist, if most of the african countries had written records. Then they would have their own heroes, their own geniuses, their own empires and historical tradition to relate to. But the fact of the matter is that for most of sub-saharan africa there are no written records at all, because none of these people ever developed a written language. Only with the arrival of the white man, the historical records begins to be created. The best thing of all is to have your own history; If you don’t have that, the second best thing is to claim that someone else stole it from you and that their genius and creative power is really identical to your own, because they robbed it from your ancestors or because all the famous people in their culture are descendants of your people and have enhried their genius from your people/race. Obviously such claims are absurd for a variety of reasons, but many black people believe them because it makes them feel good about being black.

    Many white people also have to look critically in the mirror; I think that the blacks who claim that whites have been ignoring black peoples achievements have a point in saying that. Until recently I didn’t know that the french author Alexandre Dumas and the russian poet Alexander Pushkin both had black ancestry. I have read a lot about these two, they are some of the most well respected authors in European history and they both had black ancestors. I also think that white/europeans have been ignoring the role of black people in the history of Egypt, for a long time the pharos vere depicted as white in European litterature, but actually there was a great racial diversity in Egypt, many Egyptians are black or mulato, it’s a mixed population. There are many other examples I’m sure.

    Okay, I have to stop now, sorry for my english…

  • jessica

    “My guess is that this is really about pride, about finding out who has the ‘finest’ legacy, who has given the greatest contribution to the worlds cultural heritage. So many black people are almost desperately trying to find any link that they can possibly find between famous white people in history and ‘prove’ that they were ‘really’ black or at least had some black blood in them, whereas the white ‘defenders of the faith’ are doing their best to make sure that the white man remains on top of the piedestal. Not very serious, not very scientific.”-Erik

    Thats exactly what this is about. I think the fight is really stupid, however some of the comments made in the discussion are extremely ignorant. I thinkn people should call people out on their ignorance and educate them.

  • Johan

    No, Johan, I’m defending African Americans with Inga’s grossly ignorant comment of “Who do African Americans think they are?” I’m not lecturing anyone, simply stating my opinion, thats all. I thought that comment was totally demeaning and condescending, like blacks have contributed to everyone’s everyay lives. I repeat, I am NOT afro-centrist by any means. I think those opinions are extremely ignorant and poisoning as well. It makes me really uncomfortable, and I don’t know if you think this, but you seem to make an emphasis of grouping all African Americans in this radical afrocentrist point of view. Race isn’t important but since everyone stresses it so much don’t think its fair that black contributions are overlooked and undermined. Race doesnt influence any of the decisions I make about a person their intelligence, their talent, their character. But I feel like IF Beethoven was black (and IF is in caps because like I said earlier, I am not familiar with his history or the scientific proof behind it…) it totally changes the talent he possessed. I don’t know if you mean to imply that, its just the impression that I get.

    So. If you have reasons for mentioning someone’s race, let others do the same.

    At any rate, the whole controversy was started by Afro-centrists, who like to use the same argument that race is irrelevant… but conveniently make an exception for themselves, when they are trying to show that some famous person was black.

    They should explain why, if race doesn’t matter, it is even acceptable to ask if Beethoven was black.

    Thats exactly what this is about. I think the fight is really stupid, however some of the comments made in the discussion are extremely ignorant. I thinkn people should call people out on their ignorance and educate them.

    I disagree with the idea that this discussion is worthless, or that argument is pointless.

    Argument can be useful.

    You, for example, have learned something from this discussion: that the inventors of street lights weren’t black.

    If I were you, I would feel angry at having been told a lie.

    P.S Johan I have straight hair and I’m African American, want me to send you a picture for proof? My mother, my brother all have straight hair as well. And I am not mulatto. 100% B-L-A-C-K

    There is a whole cosmetics industry built around hair straightener for black people.

    So a picture would prove nothing.

    But, if you REALLY have naturally straight hair, and are REALLY black, why don’t you go to a University with a program for Physical Anthropology? The graduate students would probably love to have a look at you – and you could even make a profit.

  • Inga

    Jessica,

    I don’t know who you are? You were running this so called “bickering” down, so why don’t you just leave and do your “bickering” somewhere else.

    You know four languages, and I say so what? Most Europeans know several languages.

    The discription for a so called “white” person, is Caucasian. Beethoven was white. Your ridiculous remark and total ignnorance that a person of African descent can be European. Get REAL! An African may be a citizen, but not EUROPEAN Caucasian.

    Oh, and to Erik. You say that you’re from Danmark. It puzzles me that a true Dane is not aware of his own history, and refers to what he read in a book!!! That is a shock. Danes are very proud of their heritage, and know it very very well.

    You must then know the meaning of Der er et Yndigt Land, and Kong Kristian stod ved hojen mast

    There were no Black Nords. Get it right! The Vikings never never never reached Africa. They reached
    North America. Newfoundland to be exact. This was the longest venture for Vikings.

    Inga

  • jessica

    You again, have misinterpreted what I said, so let me clarify. I don’t think this discussion is useless, its really poignant and a good exampe of how people view races in America. I do feel like some of the examples raised in the arguments are ignorant.

    I haven’t told a lie; it thought I heard it somewhere in passing. Thank you for the correction of my knowledge.

    haha As for my hair??- Its naturally straight. I have straighter, easy to manage hair like my other friends of ther nationalities. Its not that uncommon… despite your limited knowledge of black hair care and your exposure to blacks.

    May I ask where you are from? I feel like a lot of your arguments are extremely harsh and overly critical, as if you are trying to a social commentary in general.

  • jessica

    Inga did you even read what I wrote?

    I don’t know who you are? You were running this so called “bickering” down, so why don’t you just leave and do your “bickering” somewhere else.

    You’re right, you don’t know why I am. Whats your point? Like I said before, maybe you don’t fully understand the english language or was too lazy to read all of my comments, I came to this forum because I was interested in the argument. As I read, I think some people, like yourself, have made the most ignorant points. (I.E Who do African Americans think they are…)

    You know four languages, and I say so what? Most Europeans know several languages.

    -I feel like you insulted my intelligence- when you corrected my mere typo… I feel like I had to justify myself. I didn’t want you to group me as an “ignorant” African American.

    The discription for a so called “white” person, is Caucasian. Beethoven was white. Your ridiculous remark and total ignnorance that a person of African descent can be European. Get REAL! An African may be a citizen, but not EUROPEAN Caucasian.

  • Inga

    Jessica,

    I didn’t insult your intelligence. You took offence, and why?

    With regards to “Who do African Americans think they are?” Yes, I would ask again, of the Americans on this site. What right do you have to push your opinions on who Europeans are? It is a typical American attitude (both black and white). Americans always try to dictate to the rest of the world. They are apparently the ALL POWERFUL! Well don’t push that on Europeans, or the rest of the world for that fact.

    You step out and all of a sudden chose a person who contributed to this world, and decide that he’s Black. Ludwig von Beethoven was not Black, or of any African descent. When did you decide to become an expert on Beethoven.

    I live in Germany, and I am more than familiar with Beethoven. And you?

    Inga

  • jessica

    The discription for a so called “white” person, is Caucasian. Beethoven was white. Your ridiculous remark and total ignnorance that a person of African descent can be European. Get REAL! An African may be a citizen, but not EUROPEAN Caucasian.

    When did I ever make a point about calling someone a European caucasion? Please copy and paste my example and I will clarify. You clearly misunderstood something. Obviously an African, aka Black person, can not be white, aka European Caucasion…

  • jessica

    With regards to “Who do African Americans think they are?” Yes, I would ask again, of the Americans on this site. What right do you have to push your opinions on who Europeans are? It is a typical American attitude (both black and white). Americans always try to dictate to the rest of the world. They are apparently the ALL POWERFUL! Well don’t push that on Europeans, or the rest of the world for that fact.

    You step out and all of a sudden chose a person who contributed to this world, and decide that he’s Black. Ludwig von Beethoven was not Black, or of any African descent. When did you decide to become an expert on Beethoven.

    Do you understand why “Who do African Americans think they are?” is extremely offensive. Everyone has their own opinions, not all of us are crazy, radical afro-centrists. I totally agree that the general populus do have the notion that Americans are all powerful, I, do not believe that and feel sorry for the people who say that.
    Don’t generalize all blacks, or Americans, with having the same opinion. I have never made a point about Beethoven’s heritage. I DON’T know his geneology like all of you experts. Why would I swim in waters I CLEARLY know nothing about… I have never said anything to maintain the argument that Beethoven was Black. I was interested in the race relations in the board, thats why I continue “bickering”…

  • Inga

    Jessica,

    You said early in the discussion, “IF Beethoven was Black”. You are suggesting that WE are not sure. There is no IF.

    Inga

  • jessica

    OKAY Inga.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net Chris

    I am closing the comments on this thread because the conversation is no longer productive (if it ever was). I am generally not the type to stifle debate, but frankly, I’m tired of getting e-mail about the most recent inflammatory, ignorant and racist comment and its exasperated response.

    And since this is my website, I get the luxury of having the last word.

    I’d recommend that Johan go and read the wikipedia entry on Race again, since he clearly has no idea what it is (hint: a social construct).

    I’d advise both Inga and Johan to either re-evaluate their racist philosophies or at least start trying not to sound like such creepy Neo-Nazi shitheads.

    Good day!

  • http://noneyet metaphaze

    I haven’t looked at what everyone posts but actually, it dosen’t matter because everyone is missing some important points:

    1. People WROTE that he was black, you can’t tell that from a mask, regardless of what his features might have been. it only takes one generation of intermixing to eliminate straight hair, and since Africans were in Europe for hundreds of years prior and up to Beethoven’s time, I would have no doubt that he could have had straight hair and be of mixed heritage. That is if his African lineage had curly hair in the first place. Dravidans are Africans with straight hair, and they reach as far south as Angola, and as far west as Mali, and as far back as Ancient Egypt. So the lack of curly hair does not make him not African.

    http://www.saxakali.com/southasia/dravidian_india.htm

    Schwarzenegger’s name means “black plowman”, heck, he could have black blood in him as far as that goes.

    2. Moors were MOSTLY african, and have much proof in firsthand written and painted form (secondhand would be from plays and commentaries lest we forget things like the description of Othello). The story of Morien is also another example of pre-Moorish knowledge of Africans in Europe
    http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/morien.html
    http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/myth.html
    http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/rome.html

    3. Africans have a long history in Europe previous to the Moors as well. One of which is the Black Vikings, for example
    http://maxpages.com/mainevikings/newresearch

    Eric the Red is of mixed heritage, proof of which is that his cousin was described as black and quite tall, and of incredible strength. He was also was described as not being a good Christian, because he swore a lot, and egged his cousin into many battles.

    Another example of proof that Beethoven is likely to have Moorish blood in him despite his appearance is the fact that there are many examples of people in Europe with mixed blood and African heritage that do not look it.

    1. One WELL known person in Russian who has black blood in him and bragged about it was their most celebrated poets, Pushkin

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/pushkingenealogy.html

    Read this article then open a new window. Go to google.com and select the images link. Type in pushkin and view the painted pictures of pushkin as well as sculptures of him. In hardly any of them you can see any african features other than a tan, but that would be “grasping for straws” as it were; yet his grandfather is of African heritage.

    2. The Current English Royal line has black blood in it as was from a black/Moorish house

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/royalfamily.html
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/ssecretum1.html

    (for those of you that don’t understand, anyone who claims the ‘Sang Real’line of royalty derives that from Ethopian bloodlines)

    I’m not going to go into too much more detail because really, the proof is there. Only bigotry can cloud details. Not that I care; I’m more of a Kenny Rogers fan myself.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    The subject of the discussion was Beethoven’s race.

    The allegation was made that he was black.

    That is incorrect.

    The reasons are abundantly clear (e.g. Click to see Beethoven’s hair.)

    Then the claim was made that the Moors were black. That is also incorrect (click here). (or, alternatively, talk to – and look at – someone from any North African or Middle Eastern country).

    The Afrocentrists are behind these claims.

    They are not historians or scientists.

    They are a political movement. This is the only reason they are taken seriously.

    If you look at the claims that they make on this board, you will see what they are really after.

    To understand political/mass movements, a good book to read is “The True Beleiver”, by Eric Hoffer (click).

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    Dravidans are Africans with straight hair, and they reach as far south as Angola, and as far west as Mali, and as far back as Ancient Egypt.

    The Dravidians are not black or negroid.

    Africa is a continent – North Africa is home to Arabs and Berbers.

  • Reggie

    Dear Johan

    You quoted Eric Hoffer:

    “All active mass movements strive to interpose a fact-proof screen between the faithful and the realities of the world. They do this by claiming that the ultimate and absolute truth is already embodied in their doctrine and that there is no truth or certitude outside it.”

    -Eric Hoffer

    This statement can apply to many people. It certainly can, and does apply to you, and Belle too.

    You did not refute anything that “Moor” said. In fact, you and belle, both resorted to Ad Hominem attacks.

    For the record: In America, many Black inventors could not gain patents because they were slaves. Many times the still couldn’t as “freed men” (how sick to have to be a freed man). The bulb was indeed invented by Mr. Edison. However, it was a black man who devised a longer burning filament. Traffic Lights, gas masks, oil filters, and so much more were invented by Blacks. When alleged racist’ (Like you and Bell) can’t admit that Blacks have contributed to this world and outright deny it then you not only are ignorant and narrow-minded, but you become proven racist’. It is that hatred that prevents you from seeing reality, facts, and truth. You will never see it and I hope you don’t.

  • Reggie

    Question:
    What’s equally as absurd as a Black person trying to tell any White person about White history?

    Answer:
    A White person teaching a Black person Black history.

    Now what’s silly is seeing a white person tell a black person that he has no grounds to teach a white person when white people have done this in America for decades.

    Now that we are thinking outside of “the box” (The box that Willie Lynch built) we are called reverse-racist’ or Afrocentrist. We are so wrong for trying to reclaim some type of identity of our own; even when it’s based on books written by white people. We are so wrong for teaching our children facts; be it actual facts or ones own facts. Its ok for whites and others to do it. But God forbid those Negros.

    How dare those, those, those… We Negros have a voice, preference, belief, history, ideals, ideas, thoughts and all that other good stuff that builds and maintain a people!

    Racism will never end nor will hatred. Slavery ended (at least changed) and Jim Crow took over. Jim Crow ended (at least changed) and segregation took over. Segregation ended (at least changed) and Racism took over. Racism went underground and lurks behind every face of this country.

    Standing over the shoulder of every white person is the voice of racism. It tells white girls not to date black boys (and vice-versa). It tells white women to hold thier purse when a black man is near. It tells white owned businesses (not just white) to watch black patrons no matter how much money they have or have spent. It tells white people to move from thier homes if a black person buys one on the block. Hell, it tells me to be watchful when I see a white policeman. It tells me to be very carefull when I walk through a community thats all white, all hispanic, or all Asian.

    Music is music. “B” couldv’e been black. It does matter if he is being portrayed as white and is actually black. Germans would be so angry if they found out that Hitler wasn’t a pure white person. No! Black people would not be upset to find out that Marting Luther King was white or part white. Shit! Most black folk already know that our ancesters up to the early 1900’s were raped by white men. We wouldn’t be shocked; please.

    Drop the “B” issue and let’s get on to something else. We can keep talking about race till the aliens from Uranus invade. But pick another issue.

    How about this one:

    Willie Lynch, the Willie Lynch Letter, The making of a slave, ect..yada..

    Research and drop some views and thoughts on it.

  • Reggie

    Good site Chris. I likes. Debate is always good.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    You did not refute anything that “Moor” said. In fact, you and belle, both resorted to Ad Hominem attacks.

    “Moor” pretended to know Arabic, and got caught. He apparently assumed that no one reading his nonsense might know some Arabic. ; )

    For the record: In America, many Black inventors could not gain patents because they were slaves. Many times the still couldn’t as “freed men” (how sick to have to be a freed man). The bulb was indeed invented by Mr. Edison. However, it was a black man who devised a longer burning filament. Traffic Lights, gas masks, oil filters, and so much more were invented by Blacks.

    The discussion was about Beethoven’s race. The allegation was made that he was black. The evidence that disproves that is clear.

    The Afrocentrists made a false claim, and got caught doing it (and said a whole bunch of other stuff that had nothing to do with the subject).

    And they couldn’t admit it.

    So what can we learn from this?

    When alleged racist’ (Like you and Bell) can’t admit that Blacks have contributed to this world and outright deny it then you not only are ignorant and narrow-minded, but you become proven racist’. It is that hatred that prevents you from seeing reality, facts, and truth. You will never see it and I hope you don’t.

    It is not up to me to explain myself to you. It is up to you to make correct observations, and to have some self-doubt.

  • Reggie

    It is not up to me to explain myself to you. It is up to you to make correct observations, and to have some self-doubt.

    I hear ya Yohan. I can take criticism and advice of any form. I am able challenge myself. I hope you take your own advice as well.

    It just seems odd that you spent 4 months explaining yourself, not making correct observations, or showing any self-doubt. You are absolutely, positively, 100% sure of the things you have stated and quoted over the months. There is no possible possiblity, no chance or stroke of luck (or bad look depending on how you wanna see it), and no way in hell that Beethoven may have or could have been remotely bi-racial or some percentage black.

    Being a student of philosophy, the curse that seems to chase while leading knowledge, I encourage all to read:

    Karl Popper “The Philosophy of Science”

    I enjoyed everyones comments

  • Reggie

    Happy reading, learning, and debating.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    It just seems odd that you spent 4 months explaining yourself, not making correct observations, or showing any self-doubt. You are absolutely, positively, 100% sure of the things you have stated and quoted over the months. There is no possible possiblity, no chance or stroke of luck (or bad look depending on how you wanna see it), and no way in hell that Beethoven may have or could have been remotely bi-racial or some percentage black.

    Actually, I am the only one who brought any observable evidence to the discussion.

    The Afrocentrists apparently do not feel the need to check anything, and so didn’t bring any.

    Here is another piece of observable evidence for the Afrocentrists to ignore and dance around:

    A drawing of Beethoven’s skull (click).

    Guess what racial features are observable?

  • Reggie

    Mr. Johan,

    Yes. I am a Person of African Descent. And guess what? Despite your stereotypes and other racists ideas I don’t rely on or need the History of Africa or Black America to validate me as a person. I’m a human being first and foremost. I’m a believer in a rational creator (meaning nothing in creation is inexplainable to man, but thats another arguement). Furthermore, There is nothing that the American Government has done for Black Americans that make me feel that we have accomplished anything or gotten anywhere. This is a capitalist country and MONEY is where I sit. Nationalism, Afrocentrism, and Patriotism puts nothing in my pocket but space. Those things can serve nothing for me and are only mechanisms of bs and control. I’m not from Africa, never been to Africa, have bypassed the chances to go to Africa, and would have to be killed in order to be made to reside in Africa. I like America with all of the good and despite the bad. I can’t possibly be the Afrocentrist you claim every black person who doesn’t believe as you do to be.

    Now as for Beethoven. I have been a lover of all forms of music since a child. I enjoy his music as much as I do any. There are far too many black musicians of high quality for me to worry about the race of some dude that no one living has seen or met. I can care less if he is black, white or partial anything. He could have been a pot smoking, peter beating, child molesting, crap eating white, black, or Klingon. It doesn’t change his music. It would only matter as a point of historical information if he was other than what he was portrayed to be. His color means a great deal to you and others (black and white). A change in his actual race would mean crap! Now to find out other interesting information would be nice.

    As for your most recent piece of evidence:
    I have highlighted by capitalization key words that bring this evidence into question.

    On 21 JUNE 1888 Beethoven’s body was exhumed a second time, so that his mortal remains could be transferred to the Vienna Central Cemetery (Zentralfriedhof). This time there were only TWENTY MINUTES available for a medical examination, so the time was spent examining and measuring Beethoven’s skull. It had DISINTEGRATED TO SUCH AN EXTENT THAT THE SURVIVING REMAINS DID NOT PERMIT POURING A COULD OF THE INSIDE OF THE SKULL.

    The drawing shown here was PROBABLY made on this occasion. In the old inventory of the Beethoven-Haus the following note was made about it: “Choulant, former Director of the Clinic at the Dresden medical-surgical Academy, is said to have made this drawing the second time Beethoven’s body was exhumed in JULY 1888.”

    Johan, this proves nothing whatsoever. Only that his body was moved and his skull was measured in haste. It would be so easy for me to claim that some Euro-centrist altered something when he was exhumed; an accusation you would make about Afrocentrist.

    I am not MOOR, GREEN TEA, Or OSE (though I must admit, it seemed rather convenient). I am Reggie who stumbled across this site looking for downloadable midi collections of Beethoven’s music. I heard this race argument years ago and there is no information available that makes his music less or more important. Now, if information comes out that he traveled to Africa and was taught by Osegomon under a tree by the river while watching the hippos screw then you all have something going. Other than that we are all just shooting the shit like wine-headed bums on the corner of 35th and State Street.

    All of you have used questionable evidence. It is all questionable simply because noone (You, Belle, Moor, Tea, Ose, et al.) has applied any scientific questions to any of the information other than to say to yourselves; “Well this must be true, why would this person, who I happen to agree with, tell a lie”, and you take it and run with it.

    I don’t wanna hear any crap about anyone studying Beethoven for 30 years. How in hell does that make you correct? It doesn’t! That logic would make Strom Thurmon, Edward Banfield, and Louis Farrakahn (An individual who has studied and been trained in classical music and plays beautifully despite his racist rhetoric), and so many others correct in any assessment they make about anything they have studied or been concerned with over the past 30 years.

    STOP THE DAMN MADNESS PEOPLE!!! COME ON!!! Get to some real science.

    Johan, you played the race card when you took the subject and made it into racism. You made the first shot from the very start of this subject. You took it away from scientific analysis when you said this:

    The speculations about black ancestory probably got started when it became fashionable to make claims about black achievements throughout history, and also probably got started in America.

    It is widely known that Egytians of antiquity were far from forthcoming or honest in writing thier history. What was thier motivation for lyinge or withholding information? Lets not even talk about the Greece and history in thier eyes. Oh, let’s not go there about the Jewish. To many of them believe Josephus was some crack-pot idiot. So from this it isn’t hard to reason that others could have been some type of ‘centrist incapable of being honest, this includes, but isn’t limited to Europeans. So would ALL stop proclaiming ALL history to be TRUE.

    White supremacist propaganda (In America and abroad) screws up minds just as much as black supremacist propaganda can screw up minds.

    And as a scientific note: The evidence found by one does not make anything factual to anyone but it’s founder and those who have reason to trust the alleged evidence. Hell, Emmit Till was bruatally murdered by southern whites and those men were found not guilty even though they admitted it. But of course, jim crow laws prevented black people to be considered reliable sources against white men in any crime. MY POINT. Evidence My Ass!!!

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    If you weren’t busy dismissing evidence, you might have noticed that the site includes photographs of the skull.

    …and now, back to subject.

    Notice that when an image of the death mask is superimposed on the drawing of the skull, it fits (click).

    Based on this, I would say that the artist did a fairly accurate job.

  • Louisa

    Reggie,

    Who the hell are you!! You made an insulting comment about someone studying Beethoven for 30 years, and frankly you are ignorant and rude.

    Presently, I study music at UBC, and after reading over this site, I would like to inform you that “Belle” (I will not reveal her surname, as I respect her privacy) is a well known and respected Professor at a highly reputable University in Germany. She is a scholar with regards to Beethoven. She has spoke throughout Europe, and parts of North America.

    HOW DARE YOU!!

  • Reggie

    Johan,

    I have not accepted or dismissed YOUR evidence (a drawing..?). Frankly, I don’t care about his race. YOU are the one who has been dismissing Moors’evidence and have given no thought to anything anyone has said but to those who agree with you. Yes I have found ALL of the evidence presented by you, Moor and others very questionable, on the surface at least. I find everyones evidence questionable because it all has been clearly subjective and it is clear that none of you have questioned the evidence yourselves. Noone arguing in favor or against the question, “Was Beethoven Black?”, has presenting anything to hold up your arguments.

    Louisa,

    The fact that Belle (not that I give a damn about who she actually is, if I wanted to know I could easily find out) is from Germany makes her likely to be less objectionable, just as any black person (especially from America) used as a source by Moor is considered less than objectionable by Johan; and I’m sure you agree with Johan 100%.

    I can’t even count the number of German, American, and other well respected SCHOLARS who have studied people for decades and have made so many sick findings about other cultures and races. Does that make them right? HELL NO.

    You call me ignorant and rude. Who the hell do you think you are? No one has been more rude than Belle and Moor; you need to read this again because noone is writting in flats or sharps (at least not notes anyway, just words).

    For the record: I have no reason to think that Beethoven was black. Yes the possibility does exist. But do I think he was? Not really; I have never given it any thought and I will not embark upon a useless study to verify his race. But I’m intelligent enough to look at all sides and pieces of evidence to make my own decision. But I really don’t give a damn.

    Once again, the the pedants of the world only see, read, and hear what they want.
    The fact is this. It’s so funny to see people get so angry, and hatefilled at the idea that a long-dead national treasure has come into question. Chances are that it only bothers you all because the question concerns not that he was some other type of European, but a nigger.

    CHRIS!! PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT

  • Reggie

    Chris:

    As for your more provocative question, Was Michael Jackson black?

    The answer is: Yes, he was black. I think he is… is… Well Damn! I don’t know! I have never seen the likes of him.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    I have not accepted or dismissed YOUR evidence (a drawing..?). Frankly, I don’t care about his race. etc. etc. etc……etc.

    You protest too much.

    You are the one being disrespectful, and exploiting racial politics.

    And now (with Mr. Reggie’s permission), back to the subject:

    The drawing of Beethoven’s skull fits the death mask (click). So do we say it is “just a drawing”, or do we notice something?

    Here is a photograph of Beethoven’s skull. – which is provided by the same site.

    Stick around, because there are more things to look at.

  • Louisa

    Dear Reggie

    If you don’t give a damn, what are you doing on this site?????? If you are on the topic of Beethoven, you SHOULD GIVE A DAMN who Belle is. She is known and regarded very highly. Why would you say you don’t give a DAMN! Well, good for you. Why bother responding? Who are you referring to as pedant?

    Narrow minded? That would be you!! Oh CHRIS CHANGE THE SUBJECT!! Obviously you can’t handle debates.

  • Syd

    This discussion stopped being a Debate more than 60 comments ago. This has simply turn into a racial argument that will have no end and no winners.
    If this is supposed to be a discussion about Beethoven’s families background, more facts and theories based on credible information needs to be put forth. Such as references from acknowledged books, not internet articles and websites created by unknown or anonymous authors that have no true credible references, just speculation.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    If this is supposed to be a discussion about Beethoven’s families background, more facts and theories based on credible information needs to be put forth. Such as references from acknowledged books, not internet articles and websites created by unknown or anonymous authors that have no true credible references, just speculation.

    Which websites?

  • Louisa

    Oh Syd!

    When did you step in? Credible references. It it quite apparent that we have had a reputable individual on this site previously, who is a Beethoven scholar. If you would open up your mind and read the many many books on Beethoven you would discover who he actually was. Go and visit his homeland, and you’ll find the truth.

    It’s unbelievable to me, as a student of music that people like yourself twist the facts. If it’s not important to people like yourself what Beethoven’s background was, why do you persist? His music is so very important to people like myself, and I became very disturbed with this group of “whom ever” decide that Beethoven was black, and that other white composers

    I have spent a lot of time over in Vienna throughout the summers, and I still can’t fathom how so many of you can deny his heritage of being European descent.

    It’s very sad.

    I read an article where an African American claimed that Hayden had plagiarized some of Beethoven’s works. And many African Americans believed him. I couldn’t believe it. Unbelievable!!! Hayden was born years before Beethoven, and he was a mentor to Beethoven. In fact, Hayden sent a gift of string instruments to Beethoven in his later years. Beethoven admired Hayden very very very much. If this American knew anything about the classics, this statement would never have been made. Plagiarized?????

    Hayden was the creator of the symphony and of the string quartet. He was admired by Mozart. Beethoven was invited to Vienna to receive lessons from Hayde.Why on Earth would Hayden copy Beethoven, when they had differing opinions on the theory of music.

    It seems to me that so many people pull opinions out of thin air, and have no knowledge whatsoever on the subject of Ludwig van Beethoven. I’m very surprised that the professor would have made a comment on this site. But then she is very open minded. She always has open dialogue with her students. She really could have straightened quite a few out on the facts, but it seems from what I’ve read that she held back, and let those individuals hang themselves.

    You can only laugh, and know that the truth of Ludwig van Beethoven has always been the truth. I would really enjoy seeing this African American go to Vienna and make his proclamation. Do you think?

    Bye for now.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    Dear Louisa:

    Europeans are not desensitized like the Americans, and see what is really going on.

    If the Afro-centrists could have this discussion closed, and have you and I labeled as racists whenever it strikes their fancy, what respect can you expect from them?

    My best regards to professor Belle.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    Let’s look at some more evidence.

    The last website we looked at, the Beethoven-Haus museum’s website, had photographs and drawings of Beethoven’s skull.

    To test the accuracy of the drawings, we could see if they matched the contours of the Beethoven’s death mask.

    They did (click).

    Next, let’s see it the death mask (click) matches the the skull (click).

    It does (click).

    Anybody can do this with Photoshop.

    (note: right sphenoid and temporal appear to be detached).

  • Reggie

    In reading everyones responses I see that I must make a change:

    No one has been more rude than Belle and Moor;

    This should have read:
    No one has been more rude than Johan with racist rhetoric. Belle simply fell in love with Johan because her good sense won’t allow her to express his type of racism. Moor simply used the same science thus making him equally unscientific.

    Again, I stumbled across this site in search of downloadable midi files of Beethovens music. I heard this argument years ago. I only began to comment when I began seeing racial comments and no actual science (Johan).

    This topic is old and pretty much ignored (FYI, most African Americans have never heard the claim of Beethovens racial identity.)

    This topic is best debatable by Europeans both for and against, or by blacks for and against, and not a cross-section of blacks and whites. This would have eliminated the ‘Centrism that Johan and Belle hates.

    Belle should have opted to remain an objective Professor rather than ride the coat tail of racism in what should have been a scientific debate. It would have been such a beautiful exchange if Belle would have smote Moor down in battle rather than uphold something she claimed to reject, racism.

    Louisa, let me show you (and Belle too, because she put forth the same challenge)how silly your challenge to black people is. I DARE YOU ALL TO GO TO WATTS OR COMPTON AND MAKE YOUR ARGUMENTS IN THE EXACT SAME FERVOR YOU HAVE HERE. You and both know how silly that is and how unrealistic that is. We all know what will happen to a white face spewing racism in such an area. Likewise, we all know what will happen to a black face making a claim about Beethoven in Europe. Furthermore, Louisa, I was not being rude or disrespectful to Belle (at least not trying to). But when you tout someones years of education and study as grounds for them being correct or an authority you also give credit to actual quacks and nutcases who have studied just as long and who may have just as much education.

    Now if the only argument that a racist has against being called a racist is to call thier accuser an “Afro-Centrist” then what respect can you have for them. NONE. Johan, you made it clear that you don’t respect any black person a long time ago. You were the first one on this topic to make this a non-scientific racial issue.

    Syd was correct in his assessment. There are no winners in racial arguments. But according to some of the writters here there are no racist, no Euro-Centrist, only black reverse racism and Afro-Centrism. And Europeans are the cream of the crop and thus harbor no ill-feelings towards anyone and are somehow the righteous of the world. Damn these Americans and thier Negros!

    I have no problem with debate, as suggested by Louisa. I do, however, take issue with hate-mongering.

    The first instance of this was by JOHAN on August 21, 2004 @ 8:55 am:

    The speculations about black ancestory probably got started when it became fashionable to make claims about black achievements throughout history, and also probably got started in America…So the discussion is a political one, not a scientific one.

    Yet Johan keeps throwing daggers at any black person who dares to comment by accusing us of being Afro-Centrist. Apparently, black people have not contributed to any part of the world society and must lie to make ourelves feel good.

    Then Kismet on September 26, 2004 @ 6:54 am says that Africa is a “toilet” and then goes on to say this about the anthropologist who found “lucy”

    Just because some halfwit found a chicken leg and the odd tooth, and called it ‘Lucy’

    Comments number 50 and 51 was an exchange between Belle and Johan. Belle aligns herself with Johan. Now I must be fair and appologize to Belle. I don’t think she is a racist such as Johan. I believe Belle has a true interest and love for history. However, her aligning herself with Johan indicates her ‘Centrism. Her ‘centrism may not be as strong as Moor/Green-Tea et,al (clearly the same person) but further shows that despite her years of study does not make her %100 correct %100 percent of the time. Belle’s argument, though much cleaner than Johan, was not very scientific. Her arguments showed a clear bias as well.

    LISTEN PEOPLE, WE CAN ALL GO ON AND ON AND ON. YOU WILL CALL ME AN AFROCENTRIST WHEN IN FACT I HAVE ALREADY MADE IT CLEAR THAT BEETHOVEN WASN’T LIKELY OF AFRICAN DESCENT. ANY BLACK PERSON WHO SEEMS TO GO AGAINST THE MIANSTREEM MUST BE STUDENTS OF LOUIS FARRAKAHN (HOW STUPID). BELLE AND JOHAN WILL CONTINUE TO HATE AMERICA (AT LEAST THE ENTIRE SCHOOL SYSTEM). JOHAN HAS MADE COUNTLESS RACIST REMARKS THAT HAS GONE UNCHECKED AND AGREED WITH BY MANY WHITES COMMENTING HERE. MOOR/GREEN-TEA HAS USED QUESTIONABLE SOURCES AS MUCH AS ANYBODY FOR AND AGAINST THE QUESTION. NOONE HERE IS WILLING TO ADMIT ANY OTHER POSSIBILITIES; FOR THIER OWN RESEARCHED OR FELT REASON. IF THE QUESTION IS POSED AS TO THE GENDER OR JESUS, NO CHRISTIAN IS LIKELY TO ADMIT THAT POSSIBILITY. LIKEWISE, LOVERS OF BEETHOVENS’ ETHNICITY ARE UNLIKEY TO BELIEVE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT THEY WANT, FEEL, OR BELIEVE.

    AS FOR ME;
    I HATE RACISM AND RACIST (which comes in all races). WAS BEETHOVEN BLACK OR EVEN “MIXED”? VERY UNLIKELY, BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE. I WAS NOT THERE, NEVER MET HIM OR SEEN HIM. AND I CERTAINLY CAN’T FAIRLY JUDGE THE MOTIVES OF ANYONE IN THE PAST AND MUST BE OPEN MINDED TO ANY POSSIBILITY SO THAT I CAN CONTINUE TO LEARN. DO I REALLY CARE ABOUT HIS RACE? NO. I FIND THE RACISM USED HERE TO DISPELL THE QUESTION JUICIER THAN THE ACTUAL ARGUMENT ITSELF. DOES HIS RACE DIMINSH HIS MUSIC? HELL NO. PEOPLE WHO APPRECIATE AND ACTUALLY ENJOY LISTENING TO CLASSICAL MUSIC ARE A SPECIAL SORT OF PEOPLE. HIM BEING BLACK IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY TO MAKE MORE BLACK PEOPLE LISTEN TO HIM, WHILE THOSE WHO ARE BLACK AND LISTEN TO HIM MAY APPRECIATE IT EQUALLY OR EVEN MORE (right or wrong). ON THE OTHER HAND, CAN THE SAME BE SAID OF WHITE PEOPLE? WILL THEY REMAIN EQUALLY APPRECIATIVE OR LESS?

    THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT BELLE, SO FAR, IS THE ONLY EXPERT ON BEETHOVEN. HER ARGUMENT IS SIMPLY THAT THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE FOR BEETHOVEN TO HAVE BEEN BLACK OR MIXED. SHE KNOWS HIS FAMILY EVEN. SHE, AT LEAST JOHAN, HAS SEEN HIS HAIR. SHE HAS STUDIED HIM FOR 30 YEARS AND IS A PROFESSOR AT A VERY GOOD UNIVERSITY.

    WERE THERE ANY BLACKS IN GERMANY BEFORE HITLER? YES.
    DURING HITLER? I ONLY READ OF ONLY ONE BLACK FAMILY YEARS AGO WHOSE GRANDCHILDREN NOW LIVEIN CHICAGO I BELIEVE.
    AFTER HITLER? I KNOW OF 2 FAMILIES NOW LIVING IN AMERICA WHO LIVED IN GERMANY. ACCORDING TO THEM THERE ARE SOME BLACKS THERE.

    WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF EUROPE? YES, YES, AND YES; AT LEAST IN SOME PARTS.

    BELLE IS LIKELY CORRECT. BELLE YOU WIN. JOHAN, YOU WIN TOO. EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG; EVEN ME EVEN THOUGH I GAVE NO ARGUMENT FOR OR AGAINST. BUT YOU DON’T NEED SOME AMERICAN, AFROCENTRIST, BRAIN-DEAD, BLACK WHO CAN’T POSSIBLY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BEETHOVEN OR EUROPE TELLING YOU THAT RIGHT.

    I’m sure you all will be glad to know that this will be my last comment on THIS dead issue. I like Belle’s question too; the one on the gender of Jesus.

  • Louisa

    Hi Reggie,

    Just for the record, Belle is bi-racial. Maybe it’s not racisim, but anger she has. Believe me, she is a really super super prof.

    I like what you wrote, it shows that you are very open minded. The professor would like that I’m sure.

    Bye

  • Reggie

    Thanks Louisa,

    I’m sure she is a good professor. I’ve simply yet to question the professors at my a/m about her. And they are very well respected in thier fields (philosophy and history).

    But just for the record: Belle may not be a racist. However, bi-racial people can be racist as well. Have you ever heard the remarks made by Tiger Woods about black people; even after his encounter with the racist comments made by “Fuzzy”. If she was just angry then I’m used to that. Imagine how many of us feel.

  • Louisa

    Hey Reggie,

    Not a problem. She is called Belle by many. If they know her, they’ll recognize the name Belle. I can’t disclose her name without permission. Sorry.

    She lives in Vienna.

    Bye, Louisa

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    This should have read:
    No one has been more rude than Johan with racist rhetoric. Belle simply fell in love with Johan because her good sense won’t allow her to express his type of racism. blah blah etc.

    And as a scientific note: The evidence found by one does not make anything factual to anyone but it’s founder and those who have reason to trust the alleged evidence. Hell, Emmit Till was bruatally murdered by southern whites and those men were found not guilty even though they admitted it. But of course, jim crow laws prevented black people to be considered reliable sources against white men in any crime. MY POINT. Evidence My Ass!!!

    Dear Justice Reggie:

    In a discussion titled “Was Beethoven Black?”, in order to dismiss a drawing of Beethoven’s skull, you brought up Emmit Till’s murder.

    What is that supposed to prove… that all white people are evidence-suppressing racists?

    Isn’t such a collective characterization, itself racist?

    Yet Johan keeps throwing daggers at any black person who dares to comment by accusing us of being Afro-Centrist.

    Afro-centrism is a race-based movement; but that is not my doing.

    However, this statement that you are applying is incorrect:

    black => Afro-centrist

    (nor is this correct: black Afro-centrist).

    So cut it out – it won’t work.

    Apparently, black people have not contributed to any part of the world society and must lie to make ourelves feel good.

    It is the Afro-centrists who act as though nothing significant has ever happened in Sub-Saharan Africa (that did not involve whites).

    And they lie allot.

    Why don’t you ask them why they do this?

    And now (if Reggie is finished), here are some more images of Beethoven’s skull (click).

    For anyone with a genuine interest in Beethoven, this site is a Nederlander site, and is very informative.

  • Reggie

    WOW Johan!

    You are truly a piece of work. Not only can’t you read very well or follow dialog, but you seem to read only what you want. Someone shows you an orange and you insist that it is an apple.

    Take this mirror Johan. Now, don’t look at the man in it; I wouldn’t want you to have to confront the idiot therin. Instead slap yourself with it.

    Not only are you a racist and infinitely ignorant, but you are simply a retard.

  • henning borch

    Here are the ultimate facts to end the leftist homosexuality (Richard and Editha Sterba) and negro discussion :
    1.) Beethoven was mainly an Alpinid belonging to one of the Europid races (“Celtic race”).Therefore he shared some racial characteristics of the Europids in general (high intelligence,cf. John R.Baker, Race, Oxford University Press, 1974) and the Alpinids which are stated to be more zyklothymous and emotional than the Nordids by certain anthropologists (Kretschmer).2.) Beethoven does not show any Negrid features. The correctly stated similarities between Alpinids and Negrids are purely coincidental (flat, round nose,dark complexion).3.) The Moors of Spain were mainly Orientalids (cf. John Randal Baker). So Beethoven may have had some insignificant Moorish genes which are not Negrid (the most typical Negrids are the Sudanids,e.g. in Ghana or Liberia).4.) Beethovens misogyny and emotional letters to male friends were too common around 1800 that it could be seen as signs of homosexuality, on the contrary Beethoven had many heterosexual relationships and a certain homosexual relationships could not be found (for claims of homosexuality cf. psychoanalysts Richard and Editha Sterba;summary in: George B. Marek, Beethoven). Additionally Psychoanalysis has been unmasked as leftist pseudoscience completely (cf. Kevin MacDonald ,The Culture of Critique , 2002).

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    You didn’t get away with it, Reggie.

    Does Emmett Till’s murder really somehow call into question anything that we know about Beethoven?

    Perhaps you should explain why you brought that subject up in this discussion – and how it allows you to dismiss evidence about Beethoven.

  • louisa

    Hey Henning,

    You are right on the mark. I’m glad that you came forward.

    thanks

  • Reggie

    “You didn’t get away with it, Reggie.

    Does Emmett Till’s murder really somehow call into question anything that we know about Beethoven?

    Perhaps you should explain why you brought that subject up in this discussion – and how it allows you to dismiss evidence about Beethoven.”

    Comment by Johan — June 4, 2005 @ 1:18 pm
    **********************

    Get away with what? Once again Johan has missed the mark.

    Anyone reading this entire blog would notice that I have never once stated that Beethoven was black. In fact, I made it very clear that he was probably white. I say probably simply because I never met Beethoven, and because considering fair and scientific analysis of history he was more likely to be white. I merely questioned the evidence produced and used by all persons (black and white, Johan and Moor to be precise).

    Where does Tills’ murder fit in. For the actually intelligent, I simply used the evidentiary factors of the case to prove a historical point. That point being; if the evidence provided in this case (in this case the many white and black witnesses)can be completly dismissed by the government simply based on the the old “Jim Crow” rule that there can be no witness, especially black witness, against any white person for crimes committed against any black person then surely the question of historical facts and/or evidence should come into question.

    If there had been no challenge to the outcome of the case and the dismissal of the evidence then history could have and would have read as fact that Till was not killed by any white person, especially not the persons accused; this is considering Jim Crow rules. Now that there has been a formal challenge to the outcome and how the evidence was handled the case is now reopened; of course to the anger of so many white people; like Johan for instance.

    What has this to do with the question of Beethoven’s race? It has everthing to do with it if you only look at evidence and how it may be handled by any person, groups or people, or social ideas in place. We have no choice but to accept or reject, for any rational reason of our own, information from a past that we have not experienced. If, for what ever reason, one maintains that Beethoven was black from evidence they believe and another maintains that he was white from evidence they believe how then do you reconcile the differnce in these positions? One’s only recourse is further examination of the would be evidence of both opposing views and measuring possibilities and likelyhoods. This would be the best we could do as scientist and philosophers until something else comes along for or against. Of course, at that point we are back to square one – unless some Archemedian point is esteblished and accepted that would put the question to an end.

    It was suggested earlier in this thread that a black musician would not have been placed upon a pedestal or given any credit. This may be true and is a factor that can’t be ignored. If this is true then one must ask the question “what if he was black, how would he be dealt with historically?”. “Would, or could there be a misrepresentation fabricated to say he was white?” Such a fabrication would be just as possible as Johan’s belief that ALL Afro-centric thinkers in America would fabricate and remold history to thier liking (this is a point that Johan has made over and over again and insists that it is true). If such a fabrication is indeed possible now (in a time of massive information) then surely it was possible during Beethovens’ life. Does that make Beethoven Black? Absolutely not! However, from a scientific and philosophic point of view all the evidence thus comes into question for or against the question of Beethoven’s race.

    Johan questioning the relevance of Till was only a white supremacist attempt to divert attention from the point I was making; EVIDENCE MY ASS! Johan would have readers believe that I brought up Till as some silly race card. Well race is part of this discussion and all information regarding the possibility of Beethovens race is acceptable. Till himself was not the issue, the evidence factor and how it was used and ignored was.

    Johan is an admitted racist or supremacist and judges and deals with information and discussions from that paradigm. His inability to deal with the topic objectively stems from his sick ideals and thus he can’t read what is written or get any point written by a black person that does not support his thinking. A lover of classic music MAY do the same thing, THOUGH NOT NECCESARILY.

    I dismiss Johans and Moors evidence based on philosophic and scientific principles. NOT based on race or my love for music.

    Once again Johan… take this mirror…you know the rest.

    To HENNING:
    Now as far as Beethoven’s sexuality, lets not go there. You use the same psuedoscience that you dismiss in trying to extrapolate from his writtings proof of what he did with his pecker. I don’t recall any question of his sexuality in this thread anyway, but thanks for bringing it up because that is truly more than what I cared to give a damn about. And your ideas of who and what the “Moors” were and who and what “Negroid” is only offers more information to complicate the subject and takes us right back to where this thread started. According to you and Johan NO MOORS WERE OF AFRICAN DESCENT. Then you go so far as to say that NEGRIDS (HA!) are mainly Sudanids of Ghana and Liberia. STOP IT. You have probably never been to Africa and know little of African history other than what you have read. And you are probably one of those who say Africa had no written language to dismiss any information put forward by any “NEGROID” and then turn around and make claims about Africa and its inhabitants. Are you really Johan posing as someone else? (Sorry, I couldn’t pass that up).

    To LOUISA:
    It is not surprising at all that you would agree to such social madness passing off as knowledge. And another thing, noone at my a/m knows who Belle is. If she was such the Prof that you all claim then why the hidding. If she is known as Belle then you are not protecting her (from what and who anyway? Oh, I forgot, afrocentrist and the like). Hell, she isn’t protecting herself. None of my Profs hide. What has she published? Get Real (and I will tell you why after your response).

    This entire thread has been a real course in race relations and why philosophers and mainstream scientist (especially those from Europe, particularly Germany which have produced some of the best in physics but the many of the most insane in others) can’t reconcile differences.

    I actually thought that if I never said anything else on this thread that others would show up with some real good stuff. How sad. But not surprising.

  • louisa

    Reggie,

    I really think that you should get real. I would never never disclose Belle’s true name to someone like you. Your true colours now show. What University do you attend? Perhaps that is the question which should be asked? Prof in philosophy would have no idea who Belle is.

    Have you been to Africa yourself? Realize that you really have shown your rage. You say that Beethoven is more than likely white, and then you carry on pointing out that Beethoven was probably black. What????????? You don’t agree with Moor, but I swear that you are him incarnate!! Perhaps.

    I get very tired of reading through this —-! The experts and historians know who Beethoven was, and what he means to us today, and that’s what counts most of all. Being s student of music, I don’t respect what you have just written Reggie. You make great assumptions.

  • Laura A.

    I’m sorry if this is long, but please read it all:

    Today I came across thise website with this “was beethoven black” debate during my study hall in school. Since I am a classical musician, and have studied Beethoven’s music, life, loves, and faith, I must add to this conversation what must be said, if it wasn’t mentioned already. Someone a while back on this page named S.R. Prozack said that Beethoven had to have been black b/c

    “1. Only oppressed people make great music.
    2. Beethoven had no other means of being oppressed.
    3. Beethoven made great music.”

    NOT TRUE AT ALL!!!!!! (except that he made great music, obviously)
    A. Perhaps it is true in Blues music and Jazz that ONLY oppressed people make great music, (Muddy Waters, Howlin’ Wolf, B.B. King, etc.) but this is NOT TRUE IN CLASSICAL MUSIC!!! Take Felix Mendelssohn for example! He lead a good life (excluding the death of his sister 5 months before he died) and he wrote great music, such as his violin concerto in E minor (which I am playing in my concerto competition), or the famous Wedding March, or his Midsummer Night’s Dream Op. 61 Symphony. You don’t have to be oppressed to write great music

    B. Okay, this I cannot forgive Mr. Prozack for. If you mean that he had no other means of being oppressed besides his “black oppression” you are making a laughably big mistake. BEETHOVEN WAS DEAF!!! HE WAS BEATEN BY HIS FATHER!!! HE WAS THE FIRST FREE-LANCE MUSICIAN!!! HE WAS LOCKED AWAY IN SADNESS AND SOLITUDE FROM HUMANITY BECAUSE HE WAS DEAF! Read the heiligenstadt testament if you don’t believe me. This was his oppression.

    C. Also if he was black, somebody would’of said something! Haydn or Mozart, or Salieri or SOME CONTEMPORARY of his would’ve notated in a letter or a diary that he was black! And no one did! He had a ruddy complextion. There is an easy answer for this too. To give himself some peace from the world, Beethoven liked to go out for walks constantly. This probably gave him more color than the average aristocrat (or a person in good society) of the day, since paleness was the popular look then. What about winter months you say? Beethoven was incredibly frightened of illnesses, especially tuberculosis. So he would always move around from place to place for warmer weather. So he always got in a little bit more sun than everybody. Also, to add to the mixing of the races (not to sound offensive, I just don’t have a large vocabulary)in Europe at the time, it did happen. However, to my knowlegde, I do not believe it happened in Germany like it did everywhere else in Europe (remember, born in Bonn, Germany, lived in Austria). Italy, yes, Middle Eastern Areas, why not, Germany- I do not think so. And I really don’t believe his mother and father’s background show any evidence of African blood. One website claims that his ancestors came from the flemish province of Brabant. The earliest Beethoven’s were from an area bounded by Brussels, Leuven and Mechelen.

    In conclusion, if he were black, it would not be a secret like this. It would’ve been in the history books and it written down by his contemporaries. I am not taking this point of view for any “racial” reasons either. Personally I think it would’ve been awesome if he was a brother. And personally I believe there’s a posibility that Jesus was black, but that’s a whole different story. Just please believe me in this, you can not judge his race based on his music. It is ridiculous to try and do so. He would probably prefer it if you all listened to his Eroica symphony instead of fighting over his race. And as he himself believed :

    “All men become brothers
    Under the sway of thy gentle wings.”
    -“Ode to Joy” (9th Symphony, fourth movement)

  • louisa

    Thank you Laura. As stated, this is not a racial attack, but being historically correct. Beethoven was of Flemish background, no doubt.

    I am also a student of music, and give due credit to an individual’s talent, not their race. I feel that their are too many on this site who pretend to know of Beethoven, and their ignorance has come through.

    Thanks, Louisa

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    Johan is an admitted racist or supremacist and judges and deals with information and discussions from that paradigm.

    Shut up.

    Where does Tills’ murder fit in. For the actually intelligent, I simply used the evidentiary factors of the case to prove a historical point. That point being; if the evidence provided in this case (in this case the many white and black witnesses)can be completly dismissed by the government simply based on the the old “Jim Crow” rule that there can be no witness, especially black witness, against any white person for crimes committed against any black person then surely the question of historical facts and/or evidence should come into question.

    Yes. You “used” the case.

    And it didn’t work.

    No crime has been committed here.

    There are no “black witnesses”. America’s “government” and “Jim Crow” have nothing to do with the subject of European history, or Beethoven.

    If there had been no challenge to the outcome of the case and the dismissal of the evidence then history could have and would have read as fact that Till was not killed by any white person, especially not the persons accused; this is considering Jim Crow rules. Now that there has been a formal challenge to the outcome and how the evidence was handled the case is now reopened; of course to the anger of so many white people; like Johan for instance.

    There are no Jim Crow rules here.

    But it appears that there is a problem with how evidence is handled by a certain Reggie.

    I never told you what race I belong to. Nor have I said anything about the Till case.

    So why don’t you re-evaluate your own conclusions?

    Johan questioning the relevance of Till was only a white supremacist attempt to divert attention from the point I was making; EVIDENCE MY ASS! Johan would have readers believe that I brought up Till as some silly race card. Well race is part of this discussion and all information regarding the possibility of Beethovens race is acceptable. Till himself was not the issue, the evidence factor and how it was used and ignored was.

    That is incorrect.

    It is yourself who is trying to divert attention from what you were saying.

    You don’t have to listen to anyone who has studied a subject, or use logic to prove the falsehood or truth of something.

    All you have to do is bring up Emmitt Till, and we are all supposed to cave in.

    How convenient.

    …etc..etc.. And another thing, noone at my a/m knows who Belle is. If she was such the Prof that you all claim then why the hidding. If she is known as Belle then you are not protecting her …blahblah.. Hell, she isn’t protecting herself. None of my Profs hide. What has she published? Get Real (and I will tell you why after your response)…etc..

    I actually thought that if I never said anything else on this thread that others would show up with some real good stuff. How sad. But not surprising.

    Dear Mr. “Important”:

    It is not our job to make a 3 ring circus for you.

    Belle would probably prefer to spend her time with people who want to learn.

    It is yourself who brings nothing about Beethoven to the discussion – and who wastes time with nonsense.

    And now, once again back to the subject:

    Here is a close-up of a cast of Beethoven’s skull (click).

    Some distinguishing features have been highlighted. Anyone out there who has studied Forensics or Anatomy is free to comment.

  • Reggie

    Louisa stated (in response to Reggie):

    “I really think that you should get real. I would never never disclose Belle’s true name to someone like you. Your true colours now show. What University do you attend? Perhaps that is the question which should be asked? Prof in philosophy would have no idea who Belle is.

    Have you been to Africa yourself? Realize that you really have shown your rage. You say that Beethoven is more than likely white, and then you carry on pointing out that Beethoven was probably black. What????????? You don’t agree with Moor, but I swear that you are him incarnate!! Perhaps.

    I get very tired of reading through this —-! The experts and historians know who Beethoven was, and what he means to us today, and that’s what counts most of all. Being s student of music, I don’t respect what you have just written Reggie. You make great assumptions.”

    LOUISA,

    If I told you that I was a student and graduate of Harvard University would that satisfy you or Johan? NO. In fact you would call me a liar, especially since you are implying other things about me. If I told you that I was a Prof would that then give me credit of any sort? NO. So my a/m is really not important to you. Maybe you are implying that I have no education.

    When and where did I say Beethoven was black or probably black? NOWHERE! I never made such a point. It is people like yourself who truly don’t know what knowledge is nor how to find it. You follow a teacher to the ends of the earth just because you love the subject. All I have done was question all you jerks about evidence and the use thereof. I care nothing of Beethovens race nor anyone elses race. (I guess Johan is black now). Like you love your music, I love mines, but I love philosphy first and foremost.

    Now how does my ever being to Africa or being born in Africa or America matter in this? Were you trying to make a point? What point? Would my being in Africa tell me something about Beethoven? Would that make you think differently of me? You have very little idea of where I have been. HAVE YOU BEEN TO AFRICA?

    How can you possibly say that a prof in philosophy would not know who Belle is? That is a stupid statement. There are philosophers of history, art, music and many other subjects that students like yourselves enjoy for whatever reason. Well, I enjoy philosophy. I happen to know who Bill Joy is, I know who Stephen Hawking is. Your idea is now busted.

    “Someone like me”, What does that mean? You have shown your true color.
    RAGE? Where do you see rage. Oh, I forgot, black people are always angry.
    And as far as my true color; yes I live in America and I am black, brown, African, and whatver else you choose to call me. Don’t let name mislead you. African is full of black people with European names.
    And trust me, I am not Moor. If you really knew who I was and anything about me you would eat those words. If I was Moor I would still be citing questionable and lopsided sociologist and historians like he did.

    What have I assumed? Nothing at all.

    You being a student of music, I don’t expect you to respect anything I would say that questions anything about music or figures in music.

    ONCE AGAIN, FOR THOSE WHO READ WITH EMOTIONS, I DON’T BELIEVE BEETHOVEN WAS BLACK. FLEMISH, IRISH, WELSH, DUTCH, OR WHATEVER. IN LIGHT OF THE MOST ACCEPTABLE EVIDENCE, IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT HE WAS WHITE.
    *****************************************************
    ******************************************************

    JOHAN:

    why cast a pearl to swine. Hell, if it’s garbage, then why bother casting that. Live in what you have.

    ****************************************************
    *****************************************************

    LAURA:

    I like your comments. I LOVED your last paragraph. I made a comment once about the likelyhood of “race mixing” in Germany. I have never read anything to give the idea that there was any substantial number of blacks in Germany; only a few. Thus my reason to believe that he was likely to be white. I see no need for a conspiracy or cover up. But you may be the only one to hear me on that.

    Thankyou for not racially loading your comment as others have.

    Have you read this entire thread?

    I have and even downloaded it for the text; I have a place for the entire dialogue as a learning aid for the students.

  • Constance Billingsley

    I would indeed love to submit an response regarding the Beethoveen discussion on his race orgin.In fact,I have a lot to say but in a condense speech manor.I am not sure on the question.I read portions of what the Johan person had to say,but what he was remarking didn’t make coherence sense at all.Please e-mail me the question or my view points of what I have to say about Ludwig Van Beethoven,and I will take it from there.Looking forward to receiving an e-mail response from you soon.

    Sincerely,
    Constance J.Billingsley
    1542 Pin Oak Drive
    Chattanooga,Tennessee 37411-1616
    cjb4546@aol.com

  • louisa

    Reggie,

    You are something else. The reason I asked if you’d been to Africa, because you had asked that question of Johann. So what? I found your question to him rather silly too. And yes, I have been to Africa. I’m not saying it makes me more knowledgeable. So why did you ask that question in the first place.

    And Belle is a very well know Professor in Germany. I’m not about to give her true name, with her permission. And so?

    I’m not about to argue about your education. I’m sure that you do attend Harvard. It’s a very good university.

    You seem so miffed, for someone who really didn’t want to get involved in this discussion. You don’t even know who I am. It’s total assumption with you. What’s my race, creed, ethnic background? You don’t know.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    Hello Louisa,

    Let the children pretend to be great and powerful.

    (Back to the subject)

    This site seems to claim that even prelliminary DNA testing on Beethoven’s hair and surviving fragments of his skull, show that the hair and the skull belong to the same individual.

    Here are some more things to look at:

    A profile of Beethoven’s skull (click) (artists’ drawing, image obtained from Beethoven-Haus museum -click).

    Compare this with profiles of skulls from these three racial types from a Forensic Anthropology manual.

    Notice that the distance of item 2 from line no. 3 is the least in “White” (aka European) skull – in fact, in this case, line 3 almost touches the nasal spine (item 2).

    This manual in PDF can be downloaded from this site.(click)

  • maat

    The central problem is that Europeans do not want to equate genius with African. The Roman Empire had African Caesars who busts were later marred to disguse racial features(and are now depicted as “white men with sylized hair”). Why be surprised about the need to suppress that Beethoven may have been African and possibly homosexual? The answer is FEAR. Is a final answer of who he racially was as important as his contributions to the music field? I think not. While I agree that there has been a lot of miseducation to hide African achievements, I conclude that we may never know the truth. The fear of many still blind the masses and it is sad.

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    Maat:

    The subject of the discussion is whether Beethoven was Black.

    Did you look at the evidence in comment #190?

  • Jackson

    Hi, I stumbled upon this website while trying to find Aunt Jemima images, and I must say its a very interesting debate. So far everyone here has excluded the most important piece of evidence we have in regards to Beethoven’s ethnic origins:

    http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Portraits/ImagesGalerie/AugustLudwigStein.jpg

    This image clearly shows that this man has an afro! No white person can comb out a natural like that! Thus he must be a black man, or mixed – end of story.

    Honestly though, I don’t see why this is such a fuss. Its not as if his music was that great to begin with, I mean the guy hasn’t written anything new in years.

  • louisa

    Hey Jackson,

    I know crazy hair. I have it. Believe me Beethoven didn’t have an Afro. I just can’t understand all the fuss myself. The man was a true European, and why should that bother you? It doesn’t bother me.

    You might not think too much about his gift, but I’m a student of music, and I more than admire the man. It doesn’t bother me that he was a caucasian. Music is music man, and you should appreciate the musician/composer for that alone, not his/her race.

    Look at the incredible blues/jazz scene. If a person loves the music, then you should love the colours it creates.

  • Jackson

    Hi Louisa,

    Heh, I was just kidding around. Over the course of a couple hours I’ve read all the posts on this page from top to bottom. I think its interesting how it started out as a debate and then degenerated into personal attacks and such. Funny how people on both sides of an arguement can become so passionate about being “right.” I thought perhaps inserting something totally absurd might help break the ice ;)

  • louisa

    Hi Jackson,

    Hey, it is crazy. It’s unfortunate when people start insulting one another. I believe in open debate, but only if it’s done with respect. There are a lot of personal attacks.

    Perhaps, we should just have a site for the appreciation of all music. Oh Yeah!!! No attacks, just good times.

  • Reggie

    Hello All:

    This is that horrible person, Reggie. I’m back from vacation and decided to see what was new.

    Yes, the discussion did start out as a good debate. I’m not even going to point out the person who began making negative racial remarks.

    My point still stands as I made it.

    Jackson,

    You are funny.

    Louisa,

    Though you misunderstood me(I have never once stated that I wanted to know or contact Belle.), I still respect your ideas.

    I simply choose not to make my point anymore. As it was pointed out to me, philosophy is not for the student.

  • louisa

    Hey Reggie,

    We’ll just chill. Good talking to you.

    Bye for now,
    Louie

  • http://chris.quietlife.net/2003/03/13/was-beethoven-black/ Johan

    Beethoven wasn’t black.

    Since no real evidence was given for the idea that he was, its worth asking:

    What is behind it?

    The default position of the Afro-centrists is that Whites fabricated history to hide Black achievements – a “negative racial remark”, if there ever was one.

    Right?

  • Reggie

    Johan,

    In general, Afrocentrists have not gone about the task to rewrite or change history. Many have gone about the task of educating black people about the positive aspects of African American and African cultures. This was brought about to counter American text books that for so long only taught that Africans were never more than anything but teeth-sharpening, ass scratching, sunbathing idiots. Educated blacks, such as Carter G. Woodson, decided that it was important that black accomplishments were made public. They thought that it was important that blacks become aware of what they were capable of accomplishing. This is no doubt a noble cause whose existance was made necessary by circumstances at that time.

    DO YOU DENY THAT THERE WERE SOME WHITE PEOPLE WHO FELT IT NECESSARY TO REWRITE OR ALTER HISTORY?
    The only people I know of who make the term “Afrocentrist” to be a negative term are hate groups who even claim that over 60% of black slaves in America were owned by wealthy free blacks and that another 20% or more were owned by Jewish people and that the rest were owned by whites. You have given yourself to this type of ignorance. But I’m not saying you are a racist because you are not. Correct?

    However, I am not the first to admit that somewhere along the lines some (NOT ALL) blacks took it upon themselves to twist history or make outright insane statements and attempted to pass them off as facts. Those individuals I call Intellectual Hitlers and are no different from others (some black, white, and others) throughout history who have made it a point to massacre history or truths that did not support thier agendas.

    But to negatively label ALL blacks who have made some connection in their lives to the history of black people all over the world is completly WRONG. Johan, you have done just that.

    It would be nice to know the origins of the idea of Beethovens race. It is very possible that it was an intentional lie.
    It is also possible that some over-extended black person read the words “black” used in relation to Beethoven and “ran with it”. I certainly don’t know where the idea came from.

    I have never been taught that he was black. I always assumed that he was white because of pictures and geographics. When I became an adult and even after I first heard the idea, for purely logical and rational reasons, I never questioned his race. As a matter of fact, I have yet to see any public schools or private black schools (and there are many) that teach that Beethoven was black.

    Johan, what you don’t know is that black scholars in America give no credit to the notion that Beethoven may have been black, at least I have yet to meet one who believes that.

    I AGREE (but you’ll miss this part) that the origins of the question was worth looking at where evidence has failed. What I don’t agree with is your demonizing and negating ALL intelligent blacks who identify with Africa. It is not the position of ALL Afrocentrist that ALL whites destroyed history. Though I feel no need to identify with Africa (for my own reasons), I know at least 1 more Afrocentrist than you probably know (which is probably 0). And none of them is given to the idea that ALL whites destroyed or twisted history.

    However, you made it a point to hammer me because I questioned all of the evidence, even though I gave credit to the evidence confirming that Beethoven was white.

    Instead of scientifically challenging evidence against your belief given by OTHERS you decided to “draw blood” and level a scathing accusation against ALL blacks who identify with Africa and make it the center of their lives.

    In your first comment (#6) you stated:

    “The speculations about black ancestory probably got started when it became fashionable to make claims about black achievements throughout history, and also probably got started in America.

    So the discussion is a political one, not a scientific one.”

    If you felt that the discussion was political and not scientific then you were correct in not making any scientific challenges. Likewise, anyone else challenging your evidence were well within thier rights to pose a non-scientific challenge.

    In your first comment (COMMENT #6) you clearly questioned the mask used on this page. That was just as fair as my challenging any evidence given for or against the question.

    WAS BEETHOVEN BLACK? I ANSWERED THAT ALREADY.
    *******************************************************************************

    New Readers:

    I hope that you take the time and read this entire thread before making any comments or attacks on anyone. I hope you can abandon your feelings for the sake of a clear reading. Beethoven made excellent music! Race is no prerequisite for that; one need only be human. As a lover of Philosophy I can care little about the race of Kant, Descartes, Socrates, or Plato. I also love classical music as much as I love contemporary music (ALL FORMS). The race of any musician is unimportant. The life experiences leading to thier ideas and music is fascinating.

  • Reggie

    A student read this thread and asked what I meant by this comment:

    “..philosophy is not for the student.”

    I’m only answering it here for those who may wonder the same thing.

    Some philosophy Professors enjoy seeing the “light bulb” turn on when seeing that a student has finally understood. Some are weary of dealing with students who care little about the subject but the class is required. But when a student comes along and seems to grasp the subject on his or her own, most Professors become excited. Such a student by some is not considered a student, but a philosopher waiting for his or her degree. The average student simply wants to make it through the class and never want to encounter the subject matter again; those are the students. Those who major in Philosophy are of an odd sort but the matter serves them.

  • Louisa

    Dear Reggie,

    Well Spoken! Thanks

  • hedda

    Hello all,

    I have taken the time (hours) to read this entire log and find it sad that in this day and age we still fight about who invented what? who conquered what?….. who cares! He was a man way before his time and very blessed with a talent that NOT many have. If he was black we will never know, history has altered information before so consider it a lost cause (We would only know the truth if we lived in his time and met him). If he was of a mixed background we might never know, I am of German/African decent and it goes back a few generations and guess what if you were to look at me you wouldn’t believe that i have mixed blood my hair is straight, my skin is white and my features are also white. What am i?. I find that everyone is attacking each others backgroud and instead of embrassing our amazing differences you are just causing a war! no wonder the world is in its state that it is. No one can appreciate anyone but themselves! Please study his work and love him but dont get soooooooo wraped up with these topic and loose sight of who he is. Maybe he was mixed? maybe he was european what does that mean? and who cares. Your loosing sight of the obvious, his work was a gift no one can own him! enjoy what he left us.
    And take a history class and learn about the WORLD and its people from all sides not just the European side and then you will find the truth.

    Thank you
    Ps- A lot of inventions were created by Blacks!, the great thing is that a lot was invented in a time when they had many restrictions and were not allowed an education…. so it is a great achievement and should not be defaced by anyone. Learn your history.

  • http://diaryland.com Conundrum

    WOW. A lot of people here are perpetuating myths that they claim to be factual. While a number of Blacks have contributed their fair share to society, it is utterly ridiculous to claim that certain Whites in history were in fact, Black. This is not a racist comment, it is the truth. Will you soon say that Dorothy Stratten or Marilyn Monroe were Black women? Nope, they weren’t. Furthermore, Beethoven was decidedly non-Black. This is not to downplay the achievements or involvement of Black music and art throughout history.

    However, the militant posts of some African-Americans here would suggest that the Black race is far superior to all other races. I am not a believer in racial superiority. And I happen to be white. I have noticed that African-Americans love to stereotype, make broad statements, play the race card, & make all sorts of comments when it comes to others. Beethoven’s bloodline is mainly Dutch and Flemish. There is no evidence to the contrary that he was anything but a white European. Okay, he had dark hair. Wake up people…not all whites are blond & blue-eyed. There are plenty of white brunettes. And European/Caucasoid people have skin that comes in a variety of colors, from blue-veined snowy pale to rose pink to a pale yellow or deep olive. Next you’ll be saying that a cookie is a meatball.

    If I had a penny for every time I’ve heard a black person claim, “I have all types of different races/colors in my family” I’d be a wealthy woman! Okay, but you also have to realize that there is variety within every race. We are not all from Africa. This is a crock of bull, to be honest. I believe in a higher power who created us all differently. Maybe we spread out & dispersed into different parts of the world but you cannot call a European an African, or vice versa. I have blue eyes, dark brown hair, skin so pale that my blue veins are visible. I have had Blacks attempt to convince me that there’s some “mud in the woodpile”…their words, by the way. Nope, sorry, there isn’t. We are all the same in terms of our humanity, but racially and genetically, we differ. I didn’t find either Belle or Johan to be racist either. Certainly they were becoming frustrated with the inability of certain people to hear them out, but they made some very valid points. Maybe some people here thought of them as racist because they stood by their convictions without backing down? And Belle, for one, had facts to back up her statements.

    Hmmm…apparently no one here noticed the number of people talking about racism this, racism that when all they did was present their opinions AND facts in a logical manner. It’s very convenient to pin your problems on Whitey, isn’t it? There have been innumerable talented Black musicians & artists throughout the centuries who deserve their dues. However, Beethoven is not one of them. Please spare yourselves public humiliation by trying to claim that he had African blood. If you say this to a person who has actually done REAL research, you will be the subject of ridicule. In addition, I don’t know where you came up with the notion that Hitler had African blood OR that MLK was half White. More falsified information pretending to be facts.

  • http://diaryland.com Conundrum

    Furthermore, that being said…

    Can we stick to the topic at hand without attacking & belittling one another? Let’s keep it civilized even if we disagree. Thanks.

  • reggie

    How amazing. Yet, not surprising. Though I have never witnessed it, I have heard tales of idiots shooting themselves in the eye while hunting. However, in the intellectual arena I have seen people blow their own heads off.
    **********
    “I don’t know where you came up with the notion that Hitler had African blood OR that MLK was half White”

    I have never heard that Hitler was of mixed African descent. But I have seen over and over again that MLK was part white, mostly from hate groups though.
    *******
    “I have noticed that African-Americans love to stereotype, make broad statements, play the race card, & make all sorts of comments when it comes to others.”

    While standing one ideas and convictions is fine, making such all inclusive broad statements such as the one above is clearly racist.

    *******
    “Can we stick to the topic at hand without attacking & belittling one another? Let’s keep it civilized even if we disagree.”

    The person posing the above rhetorical question should heed their own words instead of posting a loaded comment. That person should have opted to speak only on the subject rather than hunt ad hominem.

    ************
    Every black person who comments here, according to “Conumdrum”, is somehow guilty of making the claim that Beethoven was black.

    CAN ANY OF YOU INTELLECTS PLEASE TELL ME WHERE THE QUESTION OF BEETHOVEN’S RACE STARTED AND BY WHOM? BE SCIENTIFIC IN YOUR FACTS INSTEAD OF SAYING “PROBABLY FROM HERE OR THERE”. The fact is that we don’t know where it came from or who started it. Suggesting that it came from blacks is sheer stupidity.
    *************************************************

    FOR THE RECORD, ALL HISTORY IS QUESTIONABLE ON IT’S SURFACE. PARTICULARLY WHERE GENERATIONAL GAPS PREVENT FIRST-HAND ACCOUNTS.

  • oddmodd

    What is everyone confused about. The passage which preceeds these posting is just one of many documented evidence that Beethoven was of at least mixed heritage. Blackamoor was a term used solely to describe people of African decent because the racism azz terms utilized today by Whites around the world did not exist such as nigger, negro (Spanish for the color black, not black people), colored, etc… Futhermore, Moor (derived form the Greek and Roman word Maur or Maurii) was used 1500 years ago to describe people of Africa. This word was used to describe the people of the regions now known as Morroco, Mauritania, Alegeria and Tunisia. These regions did NOT know of the word Maur (Moor) until the Romans named it Mauretania after the defeat of Hannabal and Carthage in the final Punic War. This region along with the Numibia Empire was later divided into two Romain provinces (Mauretania Tingitana and Mauretania Caesariensis) by Roman Empirer Caligula in 40 AD. These provincal names consist of the root-word Maur, as the Romans were notorious for re-naming territories with names based on the terran, people or climate. This is true with the name Africa which is derived from the Roman word ‘Afrik’ meaning “Without cold” because Africa was very hot to the Romans and never cold. So the people of Northwest Africa were given names along with the that region which signified the color of the people “Maur” meaing “black’. Afterall, nothing else in that region was black as the sands are very light tan color. Now, with that said, the forementioned passages at the beginning of these postings clearly documents Prince’s Esterhazy statements when he displayed utter shock to discover that Beethoven was a Blackamoor. The word Moor was used exclusive during the Classical Roman, Romanesque and Medivel period to denote African blackness. It was only during the Rennaisance peroid of Europe that the word black was added to the word to denote black African because the people of Northwest Africa had begun to change quick significantly as more and more Arabs arrived to that region white-washing the blackness of the original Moors. Many Europeans still used ‘Moor’ to denote an African decent person. Therefore, Blackamoor became synonymous with the ever decreasing Black Moorish population of Northwest Africa as the more euro-looking Arabs became the dominate and most populous culture thereby taking the name Moor so that when you go to Morroco or Mauritania today you will encounter, nomenclaturely, Black Moors and White Moors. Most certainly though, Blackamoor would not have been used to denote a person of even slightly mixed ethnicity such as Mariah Carey if that person was more European looking. Blackamoor would have been the word of choice for someone who was unmistakebly black even if they were comparable to a lightskinned black such as Will Smith or Halle Barry. Of course, today words are used outside of America to denote mixed African/??? ethnicity such as Creole, Mulatto, etc… Also, Beethoven was referred to as the Colored-Genius in his day denoting his unique color from that of the white Europeans he surrounded himself with. Keep in mind that in old Germany the term used to refer to what is a Negro today was ‘Mohr’ so the word is definitely used to describe black Africans. Furthermore, Beethoven’s family originated in Belgium, which had been ruled for centuries by the Spaniards, who had large numbers of Negro (black) soldiers in their army due to the Moorish rule of southern and central Spain for 6 centuries. Theophile Gautier speaks of a Belgian type characterized by brown skin and dark hair “a second race which the soldiers of the Spanish Duke of Alva have sown between Brussels and Cambrai.” Even as a mullato there would be a 85% chance that he would look more black that white as the majority of mixed black due today with the Mariah Carey types being a small minortiy such as the the singer Prince whose thick lips, steep progthanic profile and curly hair, despite having a very light complexed skin tone, is still noticably black mixed . Whatever DNA has linked him to a strictly European lineage is bogus and I would love to see the actual data supporting those findings. Do your homework people.

    Oddmodd (oddmodd@yahoo.com)

  • Anonymous

    Whatever DNA has linked him to a strictly European lineage is bogus and I would love to see the actual data supporting those findings. Do your homework people.

    You can look at comment # 190…. if you’re really interested in doing some homework.

    Blackamoor was a term used solely to describe people of African decent because the racism azz terms utilized today by Whites around the world did not exist such as nigger, negro (Spanish for the color black, not black people), colored, etc… Most certainly though, Blackamoor would not have been used to denote a person of even slightly mixed ethnicity such as Mariah Carey if that person was more European looking. Blackamoor would have been the word of choice for someone who was unmistakebly black even if they were comparable to a lightskinned black such as Will Smith or Halle Barry.

    That is incorrect. In Russia, people from Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan are called “blacks”.

    Professor Belle – who is much more familiar with Europe than you – already explained the reasons for this.

    Now, with that said, the forementioned passages at the beginning of these postings clearly documents Prince’s Esterhazy statements when he displayed utter shock to discover that Beethoven was a Blackamoor.

    That statement was about Haydn – not Beethoven, correct?

  • Johan

    That last anonymous comment was mine.

    I’ll have more forensic evidence, if the discussion is still around.

  • 616

    Wow that was a long read. Its sad no not sad its its depressing slash daunting as to how mixed up and convoluted the world we live in today is.

  • 616

    For what its worth I read about 92% of the thread and its like, so many facts so many lies, its sad. Let me start off by saying yes im black. Let me also ocntinue to say I am not convinced one way or the other as to Beethoven’s ethnicity. I was taught a long time ago that he was and i was surprised by how many results i got by googling was beethoven black. Alot of what was posted I m familiar with so dont expect me to go and post every source and cite or recount thinngs verbatim, this is a thread not a class or a disatation. I think the bottom line to this all (and someone alluded to it) is that being black, is more than just having dark skin, and somewhere in our collective psyche somewhere where fight or flight resides, there is some rift between the races because nothing elicits such fervor than talks of race. Why do we care if Beethoven was black, because if he was it only confirms our deep fears our deep paranoia that White people are surpressing and ignoring everything we do and acheive. Thats what this is all about. White people (and im assuming now) that arent racist or racist per se (two distinctions) probably feel something akin to frustration of being on the defensive for something they feel they cant all to well control (who can change the past). Its sad cuz its like the saying goes (this wont be word for word) a wise man knows he knows nothing at all (oh that might have been) its like the more i learn the more i see its so much more to unlearn and learn. Im not really tooting my horn or saying im so sagely, but I have learned about Blacks in the origins of many a place from Ireland to Asia. Im not gonna try to bowl you over like Moor did (it was pretty sad and lame when he started using other aliases cuz I thought he started off initially with some good information and points) but i will say his thoughts arent as off as it later seemed. The whole Belle and louisa threads seem to be geniune, Reggie’s comments seem to be thought out too, but I still disagree i think i lean a little more towards beethoven being black than not being black. ITs like this me and my friends were talking about the news the other day and we were talking about how fake everything is, how prepared everything is and I told my friends the same thing imma tell you. Most of you have information in your head like the food in your tummies, a bunch of fake garbage you think is really filling you up in a beneficial way. And for the few of you who are eating real food, I KNOW none of you were eating real food all your life, and so think about the time before you ate the way you do with the way you eat now. I always look back and think about what I used to eat and how matter of factly i ate the things i did. Its almost scary and the same thing is true of knowledge, there are so many things that are not true not face value that I use to swear and hold dear to be. its like when everyone learned when you were probably about 11 or 12 that your blood is blue, remember when you first learned that. remember how you just felt so enlightned, well before that you just knew your blood was red, (although your blood is actually red even before the air hits it) the point is if you take Johans arguements you could end the conversation at some of his pics he linked. But by the same token if it wasnt for Mel Gibson a lot of you woulda thought William Wallace was a raving arsonistic lunatic. Its like until you see the total history from all sides you never know. Science is like the bible (ironic huh) it can be used to pretty much advance any ideal if you twist it enough and most “facts” arent facts but theories and most “tests” are true tests their “interpretations” Finally you hafta remember, alot of things arent documented and are passed down through oral tradition. Plenty of black inventors never got credit for things cuz of the overt racism of the times does that mean it never happens. I just finished watching that movie with Mos Def (a rapper) where he plays the surgeon who was as responsible for the open heart surgery, but of course he wasnt documented for all his work, luckily HIS STORY came to light after much time passed unfortunately most stories of the loser or oppressed does not come to light. I do believe that If Beethoven was black then it is no stretch to think that through the decades this fact could have been white washed out. I mean look at Jesus, no matter what you think of Jesus I dont an intellectual alive who would agree that the most common image of Jesus is accurate. Whether you think he his black,semite, or whatever, no one i know would believe the common blue eyed picture. so the question comes how did the picture goes as long as it did, were their no intellectuals before all of us. Of course, but thats how history is, if you let it slip away, if you let others present it and retell it, it gets that twisted. Hell just ask someone about the 2000 election and that was just five years ago.

  • Johan
  • 616

    I cant view those pages here at my job, but i do remember the first time i viewed the one page and you made a comment to the affect of (and im paraphrasing) can you notice the promienent feature or something, and i couldnt. As for your last question, i dont know why you italicized “valid” but if you dont understand my comments it would make you seem less ignorant to assume they are not valid.

  • http://google.com richie

    hey u guys really need to take pride in seeing if beethoven was black and i didnt really like what , Jacquese Stitts said but beethoven this is the comment she said ‘negro beethoven’ i really didnt like that comment if beethoven was black he is african american and if he is white he is caucasion so no comments plaese bitches

  • Tommy

    Beethoven was a HONKY, NOT A NIGGER!

    You assholes are a complete bunch of idiots.

    The niggers here are stupid and the honkies are just as stupid.

    Hey Johan? WHITE POWER!

    Hey Reggie? BLACK POWER!

    Hey Belle? PUT A BOOK IN YOUR ASS.

    Hey Louisa? PUT REGGIES BLACK DICK IN YOUR MOUTH. PUT JOHANS WHITE DICK IN YOUR ASS.

    EVERYBODY JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP!

  • Johan

    Dear Tommy,

    Since you are so intelligent – and quiet – please show us an example of how to be that way.

  • Tommy

    You are much more intelligent Johan. Maybe you can show me how it goes and I will follow your lead.

  • Ayenna

    I came here just to see if I could find information satating truth either way. I know that is may be a mystery, but I do have problems seiing ignorance portrayed in the comments I have read. Any person with minimal sense should know that looking at a persons features does not really give “proof” of race. I come from an African American family that has member who can fool anyone by looks. In 2005, I have family members born with “Fair” skin, blond hair and blue eyes. I have one family member who resembles Anne Frank. These are the great grand children of a woman with skin the color of dark chocolate.

    It is possible that Beethovan may have had some African Ancestry, but may have “passed” like many people at that time and even now in 2005. If he was of African Ancestry, history books will never tell us because of how GREAT he looks in the European world. At the same time, IF HE WAS of African Ancestry, African American hisory books will let you know. Either way he was a great musician.

  • Stunned

    I am shocked that this conversation has been going on for such a long time. I too came to the site first trying to see how people took sides and what the arguments were. All I can do is say how/why this would mean anything to me. For myself, Beethoven’s genius is unquestionable, and that is the most important thing. Secondly, I believe that a lot of history has at times been misrecorded and at others plain written falsely, and the inquiry into Beethoven I think for most people is an attempt to possilby retrieve and correct part of history. I was quite surprised by a number of belle and johan’s comments, and am curious if they dispute “African” or “Black” presence in Europe during the 18th century? Also, in response to the supporters of a Black-Beethoven, it is also quite possible that his contemporaries described him thusly derogatorily. Many comedians and people refer to Bill Clinton as the “first Black president of the US.” I am curious if 150 years down the road people make the argument that Clinton was indeed of African descent.

    If Beethoven was of some African descent, would that change his legacy or genius? There must always be a struggle for the recovery of accurate history and against the danger of revisionist history.

    The DNA study of Beethoven’s hair did not, and cannot distinguish race…Race is a highly published subject but in most circles is currently understood as a social construct. The classic anthropological designation of Humanity into Caucasoid, Negroid, and Asiatic is quickly being dismissed as limited and archaic. Though within forensics it is still used as a measuring stick to make “ball park” assumptions on physical appearance.

    Observing the life and death masks of Beethoven are not profitable to either side, because if one observed masks of millions of people living today (especially in the US, West Indies, Northern Africa, Southern Europe, and Continental Asia) it is virtually impossible to differentiate. Ancient Egyptian and Ethiopian monarchs are consitently argued within Academia to be non-Black and Black. A molding is just insufficient. A painting, paid for by a patron is not admissable because people who pay for portraits desire to be viewed and remembered a certain way for posterity, and one that may be trying to escape an image of ruddiness would easily instruct a painter to highlight one’s postitve attributes. SImultaneously, biographers act in the same manner.

    Another question…Is it debatable whether there was a high population of Moorish blood in Flemish bloodlines? Is there an argument that Haydn Black also or just Beethoven? If Haydn was not Black but was described as a Moor, then that would support Beethoven not being Black, though I read a quote saying Beethoven was even darker than Haydn?

    More than anything I am curious as to the possibilities on both sides, and why debators see little inconclusivenss?

  • Johan

    There aren’t two sides.

    This isn’t a scientific debate.

    On the one side, people have given their expert opinions.

    On the other, no expert opinions have been given (because there aren’t any).

  • Anonymous

    You should make up some similar “evidence” about the “black” vikings. Most hilarious site ever.

  • Johan

    This “debate” is similar to the Creation vs. Evolution debate.

    One side cannot provide any evidence for their idea, but keeps denying that the evidence against them means anything.

    Its ridiculous.

    (unsurprisingly, Creationists also have their center in America).

  • deutsch

    This is ridiculous! Descendants of Haydn and Beethoven’s family are alive today. There is no African descent in these families! That is well known, and it is a “fact”.

    Regards

  • Johan

    The title Schwarzspanierhaus (House of the Black Spaniard) was the nickname of the apartment in which Beethoven lived, in Wien (click).

    Excerpt from “AUS DEM SCHWARZSPANIERHAUS” (From the House of the Black Spaniards) by Gerhard von Breuning:

    “It was also a very attractive apartment. The Schwarzspanierhaus, on the Alservorstadt Glacis, facing south, was not at that time surrounded by any of the new buildings that have since been put up, and it had a wide view over the Glacis and the inner city lying just opposite, with its bastions and church towers, left to Leopoldvorstadt and beyond that over the towering trees of the Prtaer and the Brigitteneau, towards the front over the extensive drill grounds of Josefstadt, the imperial stables, Mariahilfervorstadt and other suburbs; the only direction in which the view was cut off was to the right, blocked by the Rothes Haus, where we occupied quarters on the second story with ten windows to the right of the main entrance. The Schwarzspanierhaus, and the attached church, at that time used as a military bedding warehouse, had once been built by Benedictines from Spain, which led to an unusual arrangement of its windows.”

    The building didn’t get that nickname from Beethoven, but from the black robed Spanish monks before him(click).

  • Pingback: My Quiet Life » the biology of race

  • anonymous

    mariah carey is not black no she isnt. she is mixed like she always said

  • deutsch

    Did someone actually think that Schwarzspanierhaus was a racial reference ? I am laughing out loud.

    Perhaps they should do some research before making such a foolish comment.

  • DickHauser

    I can see why there could be question of Beethovens race. People still argue the race of all Ancient Egyptians. People argue the race of Moses. People argue the race of Jesus. I could go on and on. But when it is all said and done if any of them were “mixed” with negroid blood no self professed self respecting European (caucasian) person would admit it if they know it were true. No non-negroid person wants to be negroid or associated with a negroid in that fashion.

    He seems white to me. But then again, so does Michael Jackson.

  • deutsch

    Hey Herr Hauser:

    How can you speak on behalf of all Europeans?

  • deutsch

    Hello,

    Are you speechless?

  • DickHauser

    Judging from the clear and apparent emotions of other American Whites and Europeans concerning the Beethovens “race” I feel very well justified in speaking on behalf of all Europeans and American whites. I’m certainly not speechless.

  • Johan

    But when it is all said and done if any of them were “mixed” with negroid blood no self professed self respecting European (caucasian) person would admit it if they know it were true. No non-negroid person wants to be negroid or associated with a negroid in that fashion.

    That is incorrect.

    Pushkin was proud of having an Ethiopian Great-Grandfather and made a point of showing off about it (click).

    Judging from the clear and apparent emotions of other American Whites and Europeans concerning the Beethovens “race” I feel very well justified in speaking on behalf of all Europeans and American whites.

    That was pretty arrogant.

    Things are clear from direct observation.

    Have you observed the inside of people’s minds?

    (As for reasons for emotions concerning Beethoven’s race – stupidity is annoying. Right?)

  • deutsch

    Dear Dick,

    A little arrogant I think. Clear and apparent emotions! What? Where?

  • oddmodd

    In regards to mix Black/??? ethnicity it is a scientific genetic fact that the black africanoid gene is dominate white gradually recessiveness as the race lightens which explains why the VAST majority of mixed people (that is to say 50/50) of black/??? ethnicity bare much stronger features and physical traits of their African lineage. For those Mariah Careys out there, is needs to be expounded upon that her African lineage stems from her father who himself is quite mixed and light complexed. It is for this very reason that Mariah Carey’s physical traits are clearly more European than African such as the less shapely shaped hips and flat booty to the semi-curly straight hair and light complexed skin tone. The skin tone is the least of those traits because, being black and growing up in Detroit which is 86% black, I can assure you that there are many black people in Detroit that are as light as she is but whose parents are both black. There hair textures and anatomical structures (physical shapes) are unmistakebly black such as the convexing booties, steep arch in the back and round hips along with a more V-shaped physique. These lighter complexed black people such as myself are either products of one or both lighter complexed black parents or an all-black and white/Asian/etc parent. When I encounter white people or very light complexed Latino people who inform me that a grandparent or great grandparent is black (especially lightskinned black) I usually recognized that geneological distance from their blackness via the European features and physique that they possess. This differs from the traits a black person of direct black/??? mixed ethnicity or lighter complexed black parents because, again, their features are clearly African. Examples would be the R&B singer Mya whose parental makeup is black and white. Her afro-centric facial structure (steep prognathism), thick lips and round hips are clearly African whereas her hair texture is clearly thick but semi-curly denoting her mixed ethnicity. Her skin tone is clearly mixed as well but her overall look aside from her skin tone is clearly more black than white. The same holds true for Halle Barry who many would never guess has a blond/light sandy brown haired, fair complexed, white mother. Here feature are even more black that Mya’s. Tiger Woods, who clearly has the oriental eyes but much larger is unmistakeably black despite his 50-50 black/asian parental lineage. People like Beyonce has two black parents but one of them is a lighter complexed black and her features are unmistakeably black as one would expect. (hips, ass, facial structure, hair texture, etc…)

    My point to all this is that Beethoven is of this same mixed lineage which was obviously clearly distinct from that of his white couterparts and assoicates. And for the person who deared to mention Micheal Jackson looking white, you are right, but we all know that his whiteness was artifically manufactured. Let us not forget he was a brown skinned black man as is the rest of his family like Janet Jackson, etc… As far as Russians referring to Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan as black it is ridiculous to compare how todays terms would have been utilized 500 or even 200 years ago. Secondly, Beethoven was not from those regions and did not possess any of the facial characteristics of those people yet he was called a Blackamoor. Face it my friends, Beethoven was at the very least of mixed black/white ethnicity, which to the people of Europe at the time still warranted the label Blackamoor.

  • DickHauser

    I am indeed an arrogant ass if you’ve ever seen one. I can’t deny that. But can you deny that no non-negroid person wants to be part negroid. I can’t find a race of people on this planet more despised than a negro. We don’t even hate Arabs the way we hate them. The fact that so many are here fighting against the idea of Beethoven being “mixed” is not a scientific fight. It is, instead, a fight not to be even remotely black in our culture, ideas, or race.

    DAMN! Oddmodd. Sounds great. But I’ve read this entire page and I assure you that Johan will be very angry and will want scientific facts. Are you one of those Afrocentrist Negro folk he speaks of?

    I need to find some guys from http://www.stormfront to get in on this topic.

  • deutsch

    Why try to prove that Beethoven was of black heritage. His life has been written about in great detail, and his genealogy is in Wien and Bonn. Written in words, not to be argued with. There is an existing lineage of the family, and they have shown no history of black in the family.

    I definitely do not despise those of African heritage. But why try to make Beethoven something that he wasn’t?

    I ask why?

  • Johan

    Dear Oddmodd,

    There is no such a thing as a “black africanoid gene”.

    If you’re not familiar with something, its probably best not to talk too much.

    (The Afrocentrists have hogged most of this page already).

  • monique

    What is the big deal. Who gives a shit what color he is. For for the love of god, why is it so important to prove him black or white ?

  • deutsch

    He was white. So why try to prove that he was black?

  • Anonymous

    He was of mixed parentage

  • Moonlight

    Does it really matter if Beethoven was white, black, moor??? Most people nowadays are a mixture of something other than whatever race they identify with. i am white but i have a native american grandmother and a creole great grandmother. my birth certificate says white… does having a creole greatgrandmother make me black? Would it change who i am if she had been white? Would it effect my abilities? I am the way God intended for me to be, so are you and so was Beethoven. The color of someone’s skin should never be used to define them or their abilities. Beethoven was an absolute genious. His creativity, his music and his legacy will not change regardless of his bloodline.  Beethoven’s music is much more likely to have been the product of his passionate soul and tormented life than of his DNA. His music is a gift to the world. Race just isnt a factor. Whatever the color of your skin, you are a member of the human race. The world will never be a better place until everyone gets that.   

    • FACTUAL

      THE POINT IS GIVING CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE THATS ALL… RACE DOES MATTER THESE DAYS  & BACK THEN HELLO  IF IT DIDNT THIS CONVERSATION & DISCUSSION WOULDNT EXIST NOW PLEASE GET A CLUE.IF WE WERE ALL CONSIDERED JUST OF THE  HUMAN RACE. COLORS WOULDNT COME INTO PLAY. PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY BEHIND AFRICAN AMERICANS NOR DO THEY GIVE A DAMN. BECAUSE IT WASENT TAUGHT TO US IN OUR HISTORY BOOKS NOR WAS IT EVEN KNOWN TO EXIST. US PEOPLE OF COLOR EXIST EVERYWHERE WE ARE EVERYWHERE. SO THE POINT IS NOBODY WANTS TO GIVE US OUR CREDIT WHEN ITS DUE.IF UR SKIN IS DARK OR IF YOU ARE ARE CONSIDERED BLACK AFRICAN AMERICAN AND YOU MADE HISTORY. U BETTER TAKE A PICTURE OF URSELF AND FRAME IT AND LOCK IT UP BECAUSE YOUR SKIN COLOR IS GOING TO BE ALTERED AND LIGHTER.THE STUPIDITY THEY HAVE TAUGHT US. & WE STILL FALL INTO THE TRAPS AND WHAT SOCIETY CLAIMS US TO BE. BEETHOVEN IS NOT HERE IN THE FLESH AND “THEY” THAT PEOPLE SPEAK OF HIM ARE PROBALY OF ONE ETHNIC THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE MYTHICAL PICTURES & PAINTINGS TO BRAINWASH SOCIETY. NO ONE I REPEAT NO ONE IICLUDING THE SCIENTIST NO THE TRUTH OR DO THEY? THEY JUST DONT WANT YOU TO KNOW IGNORANCE GOES A LONG WAY. EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO THERE OWN FREEDOM OF SPEECH. BUT HEY AS FAR AS HISTORY KNOWS AFRICAN AMERICANS CAME FROM SLAVERY. WE JUST CAME OUT OF NO WHERE WHILE THE EUROPEANS AND ALL OTHER RACES WERE ALREADY HERE.

  • Hellokittyk30

    This doesnt answer my question

  • Johnny

    I remember reading an article many years ago that mentioned Beethoven’s father went to the Cape Verde Island to make his fortune. This did not pan out ; however he did return with a kid. It was thought that Mozart’s dad did well for himself through Mozart’s considerable talent. He was so young and cute. Beethoven, as the story goes, was older (so I’m assuming he was much older than six) and the benefactors didn’t warm to him. He never made it to Mozart’s rock-star status.
    This and the preponderance of syncopation in his music (very much recognized as an prevalent feature in African music and drums) led me to believe Beethoven was of African lineage and his first exposure to music was African. For anyone who has had piano lessons they start with maybe a Purcell tune then Bach then Mozart and Hayden. Once you’ve gotten to Beethoven’s Sonatas there is a dramatic shift. There is nothing like it in any of the previous pieces one would have played when learning the piano. I believe there was a small albeit present influence from his early childhood in Cape Verde. Another example of early influences on a composer from a different land would be Chopin’s music, notably his Mazurkas.

  • Beverly Coleman

    lol – about Michael Jackson…

  • Cjpinkney

    if beethoven’s race isnt important why is it hidden/ obscured? the same reason black people’s accomplishment arent accknowledge in the US history book. we have to read “before the mayflower” to find our contribution to american history! why is that?
    cipriano pinkney

  • J.L. Ferguson

    Beethovens’ race is of significant importance, especially to those who have been conditioned (lied too) all of their life to believe that Beethoven and any other great composer has been portrayed through history as someone who is of caucasion ethnicity. 

  • Dolwood

    The very first time I ever heard of Beethoven’s lineage possibly being linked to Africa was from a  Harvard Law student/friend stating that when one of her professors made mention of this, a fellow student said “Well, I’ll never listen to Beethoven ever again”.  So, yes, we can let “bygones be bygones” ; however, should we really?  Somewhere, right now, there’s a child, one of color who is inspired by this.  Years ago a professor at a university was asked if  the Negro ever contributed anything to the World and told his students “NO”….. thus, the contributions of the great Arthur Schomburg, who throughout the years later went on a quest to defy that response.    Well worth studying.  A portion of that students life can be see here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arturo_Alfonso_Schomburg

  • Cjpinkney

    kelli, im on the late fraight, reading this six years later, but i merely wanted to say that you hit the nail right on the head! thank you for your comment eloquent comment. it was great!

  • Erudite Man

    Total Bullshit.  Ramblings of an ignorant child.

  • somoortruth

    who the hell is they???? anybody can say a study was done and this is what They found!!! I love it when white people get all upset and bothered when the truth is revealed. you have invented nothing and created nothing in this world. you have only brought about death and destruction. your so called kings and queens lived in barnes (not castles)amongst the filth of animals before moors (which simply means black, not the name of a people from a certain region) came and taught you how to be civilized!! that is just recent recent history. i could go on but there is no need too. I know my truth and your truth.

    the individual should be respected for who and what that they were as well as their accomplishments. white people started the whole “race card” business when they lied about our role in history to begin with so stop[ it with the “it doesn’t matter bullshit”

  • Bmoriarty880

    Hi,
    I know I’m a little late to the debate, but where was this study done, and by whom? Thanks.

  • Erudite Man

    more racist ignorance from Afrocentric knot heads.

  • Bmoriarty880

    Oh please.  You know very well that if the dna tests showed that he was African, you would be trumpeting the information to the skies like a brandenburg concerto.

  • Ameel

    There is considerable DNA study of Herr Beethoven and his heritage is decidedly Dutch. His lineage is well known. Why is it imperative to say no White or non Black person could be talented without having Black heritage? As far as those inventions claimed above, you might want to fact check those.  You probably think George Washington Carver invented peanut butter as well.  ( He didn’t) 

  • Ameel

    You are not a Math and Biological science major. You are a foolish child bluffing on a website. Moorish does not connote black. That is your ignorance and bias showing.  My name is Ameel and I know a little about Moors and Muslim religion. You obviously do not.  By the way, English is my second language and even I can read between the lines of your hugely prejudiced rhetoric.

  • Erudite Man

    I remember  books I read and refer to them by their titles.  I call bullshit on your post.

  • Boo22

    Erudite you are showing your racism. I am a shamed you.

  • Thevillagechild

    Believe what you wish, Erudite Man, Kismet, ann Menheere, Belle, Ameel, Johan,  !  Yet, wouldn’t it be easier to accept the truth or at least seek the truth?  What are you afraid of?  Why are you hiding from the truth? You probably have curly hair, yet you deny that your ancesters came from Africa. Look around you at the bi-racial children with blond, curly hair and blue eyes. Look at the people in your family. Do any of them attempt to hide their true identity by straightening their hair and saying hateful, negative things about others? Erudite Man, if you hate and deny yourself, can you really love and accept others?  Accept your ancestry and search for your true history.  Will you love yourself more or less if you accept who you really are?  Most people pretend that they know all about their ancestry, yet their investigation stops in Europe.  Where did your ancesters come from before arriving in Europe?  Europe is not the beginning and the end of your ancestry.  Find out the rest of the story and be proud of who you really are. Man has a common origin and a common ancester.  I know who mine is…who is yours?  The truth will set you free.  Don’t continue to allow ignorance to keep you in bondage.  Free yourself and your loved ones by studying the truth.  

    Kelli is NOT an ignorant child.  Moor is fabulously knowledgable and intelligent.  . . 

  • Bmarq21

    Kismet I must address the ignorance of your comment!  For starters, Africa is the most intellectual, richest continent on the globe.  To answer your question, the reason YOUR people choose to accentuate the negative images of Africa directly correlates with the fact that when you choose to manipulate masses of people, you will never be honest at the root!  Ask yourself this, how come ALL of your “white scholars” study in the quote unquote poorest reigon in the world?  Africans have created nearly EVERY facet of society, in which YOUR people stole their creations and patented it as their own!  Verifyible fact!  We are the MOTHERS AND FATHERS of civilization, and all you and your people can do is spew ignorant LIES that can not be proven because you do not and will not accept the truth!  The very people who controls information, the EUROPEANS stole from every ethnic group throughout the world, only to claim it as their own, WHAT A SHAME!  Why do u think that whites spend soo much time trying to kill, a race that, in your ignorance, feels has no real relevance in society?  Memo to you sir, stop allowing YOUR intelligence to be shrouded due to the COMPLETE AND UTTER IGNORANCE of your forefathers, it is so unbecoming!  Salam! 

  • Tim Talk Shop

     Respect your MOTHER Kismet, who pulled you out of the caves and taught you to utter other than grunts and howls.
    Rape and plagiarism is the reason why our home is the way that it is. Read: “Confessions of an Economic Hitman” and tell me why Africa is a wasteland. North Africans were originally Black who were at the the border of Europe. They were at the front lines of European invasion and hence the lighter skin tone. The movie about Alexander The Great with Colin Ferrel showed the intermarrying with the “gods” of Babylon and Egypt with the inhabitants and his generals. 

  • Tim Talk Shop

     People of that era also interpreted the Bible. The Bible’s interpretation of the word Ruddy was Red like the red heifer. Look at the picture of a red heifer and tell me if that was white.

  • Tim Talk Shop

     I love my light skinned brethren. It is when they accept the caste system of superiority given by white supremacists and reject their black father that they become our worst enemies. i.e. Arabs

  • Tim Talk Shop

     The European Spaniards call Black people Moreno (Mor)

  • Carlos

    Spain was ruled by the Moors for centuries. Your contention that they belong to the European “white race” is ludicrous and the distinction with “the indigenous people they conquered”, ridiculous and racist.

  • MR KNOWLEDGEABLE

    then wasn’t he also white, since his father was white?

  • Guest

    Yeah apparently everyone was black prior to photography according to you black revisionist idiots.

    Now you idiots are claiming his friends were black without providing any evidence whatsoever. Soon George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Bach, Antonio Vivaldi, etc are going to be considered black.

    I mean you already claim Abraham Lincoln, Warren G. Harding, and Jacqueline Kennedy were black and we have photos of these people.

    Article claiming Jacqueline Kennedy was black:

    http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/michelle-obama-not-our-first-black-first-lady-10-fascinating-things-you-didnt-know

    As you can see by his death mask his facial features are Caucasian. There isn’t anything Negroid or mulatto about it.

  • Guest

    They’re afraid that their black revisionist bullshit is going to be debunked. However even if they did this they’d claim that the DNA and scientist were “racist” and hid the evidence.

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